Note: The time signatures [00:00] below indicate the start of a question if you'd like to skip to a particular one of interest in the audio file.
Q: How can we as Christians actively combat white privilege and racism? How are we at Harvest able to make a difference despite the lack of diversity in our church and immediate community?
A: See Acts 17:26 - And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place…
Ephesians 2:13-16 - But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
Revelation 5:9-10 - And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”
Any question that was missed due to time constraints during the service Pastor Jeff will address the answer on the blog.
Sermon Notes (PDF): BLANK
Hint: Highlight blanks above for answers!
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Pastor Jeff:
00:00-00:07
Yeah, this is a first as Dr. Andrew said this is a first for us bonus Q&A day because we always get a lot of good questions
Mark Ort:
00:07-00:13
Well, we every every time we have Q&A day I look at them ahead of time and I'm like man, these are really good
Pastor Jeff:
00:13-00:52
and there was there was a question it came this time that Generated a lot of conversation and I know the men in our small group it generated some conversation with us and just hearing some feedback from people, this question in particular that we're going to be looking at today, it's very timely. And speaking with our elders about the question and where we are as a culture, the elders really felt like it would be a bad thing to try to squeeze this in with however many other questions we answered last week.
Pastor Jeff:
00:52-01:23
You know, it just wouldn't be right. So we thought in light of everything that's happening today. Let's spend Let's let's spend a whole morning talking about this from a biblical gospel perspective. So here's the question Oh, by the way Tiffany is gracious enough. She's going to take questions at the end and you can brave huh, so So you can text your question or I will pass around the mic but you can text it to that number there and Mr. Wolski will get that.
Pastor Jeff:
01:25-01:28
So ask away. Tiffany said don't be shy, right? You're not going to be offended.
Pastor Jeff:
01:28-01:32
So that's why you're here, is to answer these questions.
Pastor Jeff:
01:32-01:35
So let's start with the question. Can we get it up there?
Pastor Jeff:
01:35-01:40
This is the question that we deliberately did not get to last week.
Pastor Jeff:
01:40-01:47
How can we as Christians actively combat white privilege and racism?
Pastor Jeff:
01:48-01:56
How are we at Harvest able to make a difference despite the lack of diversity in our church and immediate community?
Pastor Jeff:
01:56-02:01
So, Harvest Bible Chapel, Bible is our middle name.
Pastor Jeff:
02:01-02:04
So, let's start with the Bible's answer to racism, right?
Pastor Jeff:
02:06-02:10
Racism, really biblically, it's two things.
Pastor Jeff:
02:11-02:16
It's ignorance for one, and it's hateful for another.
Pastor Jeff:
02:17-02:19
And I want to show you some passages here.
Pastor Jeff:
02:20-02:28
Acts 17, this is Paul in Athens, addressing people that had all these idols, and they didn't know the one true God.
Pastor Jeff:
02:28-02:29
They worshipped anything and everything.
Pastor Jeff:
02:30-02:32
And Paul was telling them about the one true God.
Pastor Jeff:
02:32-02:33
Look at what he said about the one true God.
Pastor Jeff:
02:33-02:57
"And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined a lot of periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place." So when I say racism is ignorance, biblically as Christians, especially people that say we know the Word of God, you have to see that the Bible makes it clear that God made everyone from one man, really from one man and woman, Adam and Eve.
Pastor Jeff:
02:58-03:00
So essentially, we're all related.
Pastor Jeff:
03:01-03:03
And I don't even mean essentially, but literally.
Pastor Jeff:
03:03-03:10
We are all related because we all came from the same physical parents, alright?
Pastor Jeff:
03:11-03:13
So, Ephesians 2.
Pastor Jeff:
03:15-03:18
Another passage. I'm going to go through this quickly here.
Pastor Jeff:
03:19-03:20
Because you hear me every week.
Pastor Jeff:
03:20-04:03
"But now in Christ Jesus, you who are once far off, have been brought near by the blood of Christ, for He Himself is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility." Now, in the immediate context of Ephesians 2, he's talking about Jews and Gentiles, but you obviously see the broader principle, that God's desire through Jesus Christ is to make all people one in the church.
Pastor Jeff:
04:03-04:21
In the church, it doesn't matter what your ethnic background is, or your economic background. In the church we are all on equal footing because how's the old expression go? The ground is level with the cross, right? And that's how God designed it to be. So, Ephesians chapter 2 and one more verse.
Pastor Jeff:
04:21-04:33
Revelation, two more verses, 5 verses 9 through 10. I love this. We went through Revelation here, was that last year? Okay. So you remember this well. Jeff, you don't even remember this.
Pastor Jeff:
04:34-04:39
This is Revelation 5. John got to see behind the curtain in heaven.
Pastor Jeff:
04:40-05:01
They sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people from God." Look at this. "From every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priesthood of our God, and they shall reign on the earth." So understand again, God's purpose in the Gospel is to bring people from...
Pastor Jeff:
05:01-05:05
Do you see that? Every tribe, language, people, nation.
Pastor Jeff:
05:06-05:08
You know, that's God's goal in Christ.
Pastor Jeff:
05:09-05:18
So, racism biblically is ignorant, because you're ignorant of God's design, and you're ignorant of God's ultimate plan, but it's also hateful.
Pastor Jeff:
05:18-05:24
We talked about that a couple of weeks ago in John 8, when Jesus was talking to religious leaders, and He said, "No, no, no.
Pastor Jeff:
05:26-05:32
God is not your Father. Satan is your Father, because he's a murderer, and you're just as hateful as him, I'm paraphrasing.
Pastor Jeff:
05:33-05:35
So, that's the biblical answer.
Pastor Jeff:
05:35-05:38
Why are we dedicating a whole day to this?
Pastor Jeff:
05:38-05:44
I just, you know, jotted some things down here, if you're wondering, like, I don't really see why we have a whole day dedicated to this question.
Pastor Jeff:
05:45-05:47
Well, number one, the question was asked, all right?
Pastor Jeff:
05:47-05:50
Somebody posed a question, and that leads to number two.
Pastor Jeff:
05:50-05:55
It resulted in a lot of conversations happening as a result.
Pastor Jeff:
05:55-06:06
But the reason this is happening is, where else are you going to go for a word on how to navigate through such a racially tense culture?
Pastor Jeff:
06:07-06:08
Like, where are you going to go? CNN?
Pastor Jeff:
06:09-06:13
You're going to look up some knucklehead friends from high school and see their opinion on Facebook?
Pastor Jeff:
06:14-06:26
Like, "Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how..." No, the church should be the place that says, "Thus saith the Lord." And this is how we respond to racism in our culture.
Pastor Jeff:
06:28-06:30
Real, perceived, whatever.
Pastor Jeff:
06:30-06:32
This is how we respond.
Pastor Jeff:
06:33-06:35
So, all that to say...
Pastor Jeff:
06:35-06:38
And by the way, we usually set a timer, and the timer did not even start yet.
Pastor Jeff:
06:38-06:39
This was all free.
Pastor Jeff:
06:41-06:51
And you're like, "And I feel like I got what I paid for." So the question is, "Okay, Pastor Jeff, so why is Tiffany here?" I want to explain how this happened because I know how this looks.
Pastor Jeff:
06:52-07:14
We're like, well we could address race with a couple of middle-aged white guys, but we're just going to find a random black person. That's not at all how this happened. Mark is so studious, all right? That's one of the things I love about him. And when this question came, he said, "I want to talk to a black Christian about this question." And he knew Tiffany because Tiffany is his daughter's dance instructor, right?
Pastor Jeff:
07:15-07:46
So, he had this conversation with Tiffany, and Mark calls me up, he's like, "Dude, we're gonna see if Tiffany will come to the church "and share some of the things she shared with me." So then, was it last Monday, we talked on the phone, and I'm like, "Yeah, we gotta get her, "maybe it was two Mondays ago, "we gotta get her to church and share these things, "because you have a great perspective." So, I'm going to shut up now, and Tiffany, we would like you, please, before we get into some of these issues and questions, would you please just sort of take five minutes and introduce yourself?
Pastor Jeff:
07:46-07:53
And I know you have an amazing story and it's tough to boil it down, but we wanna get to some of these racial issues.
Pastor Jeff:
07:53-08:00
Can you give just a little bit of background, your testimony and introduce us to yourself?
Tiffany Seitz:
08:00-08:02
Sure, well, hello everybody.
Tiffany Seitz:
08:02-08:04
It's really nice to be with you this Sunday morning.
Tiffany Seitz:
08:05-08:11
I'm like really refreshed to be back in church because this is the first time in probably about three months that I've woken up before 8 a.m.
Tiffany Seitz:
08:11-08:14
And this is the first time in over three months that I've been in church.
Tiffany Seitz:
08:14-08:18
So I am so, so, so excited to be here with you all this morning.
Tiffany Seitz:
08:19-08:21
So thank you so much for having me.
Tiffany Seitz:
08:22-08:24
Just a little bit about myself.
Tiffany Seitz:
08:24-08:29
I like to tell people that I'm a lot more exciting in pictures, which is kind of the truth.
Tiffany Seitz:
08:29-08:31
But I'm excited to be here with you guys live this morning.
Tiffany Seitz:
08:31-08:32
But a little bit about me.
Tiffany Seitz:
08:32-08:34
I'm from Pittsburgh, born and raised.
Tiffany Seitz:
08:34-08:39
As a matter of fact, there's a little pierogi shop up the street that my family and I frequent for Pierogi Thursday.
Tiffany Seitz:
08:41-08:45
But I was born and raised here, so my story is like-- it's not complicated.
Tiffany Seitz:
08:45-08:48
It's just starts out differently than everybody else's.
Tiffany Seitz:
08:48-08:49
But I am adopted.
Tiffany Seitz:
08:49-08:54
I was adopted when I was 2 and 1/2, but I had been coming with my parents since I was an infant.
Tiffany Seitz:
08:55-09:01
So at two weeks, I was born addicted to cocaine, and I was not expected to live beyond two weeks.
Tiffany Seitz:
09:01-09:08
And doctors told me that if I did live beyond two weeks, then I was looking at a myriad of complications into my adult life.
Tiffany Seitz:
09:08-09:11
And so they said that I wouldn't live to see my first birthday.
Tiffany Seitz:
09:12-09:14
So almost 25 years later, here I am.
Tiffany Seitz:
09:14-09:14
Hello.
Tiffany Seitz:
09:15-09:15
Surprise.
Tiffany Seitz:
09:18-09:26
But I share that because it's not anything that I did or my parents did, but it's really just like the hand of God in my life, which I love to share.
Tiffany Seitz:
09:27-09:28
So that's really incredible.
Tiffany Seitz:
09:28-09:40
And not only was I Lexi's freshman roommate or Andrew Roop's classmate when I was in high school or Livvy's dance teacher, nowadays I'm most notably known for being Miss Pennsylvania.
Tiffany Seitz:
09:41-09:44
So if you Google me, that might be the first thing to come up.
Tiffany Seitz:
09:44-09:45
So that's kind of cool.
Tiffany Seitz:
09:46-09:47
That is really cool.
Tiffany Seitz:
09:47-09:47
Yeah, it's cool.
Tiffany Seitz:
09:48-10:00
But I've traveled over, let's see, 30,000-- 35,000 miles across the state of Pennsylvania talking about adoption and foster care, why it's important, and how it's affected my life, and how it can improve the lives of others.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:00-10:02
So I've had the pleasure of doing that this year.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:02-10:06
And I will be the first person in history to do this twice because of the pandemic, sadly.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:07-10:12
So our national leadership has encouraged us to hold all state competitions in the year 2021.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:13-10:15
So I will be Miss Pennsylvania for another year.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:15-10:16
Wow.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:17-10:17
Yeah.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:18-10:22
You know, something that doesn't happen very often or ever.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:22-10:24
I was totally confused.
Pastor Jeff:
10:24-10:25
I thought it was like boxing.
Pastor Jeff:
10:26-10:28
I thought somebody had to beat you to get your title.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:29-10:30
Well, usually that is how it works.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:31-10:33
But in this case, no.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:33-10:33
No.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:34-10:34
Sadly, no.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:35-10:37
But, you know, so yeah, I've gotten to address that.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:37-10:38
So you can say,
Pastor Jeff:
10:38-10:39
like, yay pandemic, right?
Pastor Jeff:
10:40-10:40
'Cause you get-- - I
Tiffany Seitz:
10:40-10:41
guess so, you know what?
Tiffany Seitz:
10:41-10:44
There are good things to come out of even the worst seasons of life.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:44-10:48
I think we've seen so much going on in the world, and I think it's really easy to focus on the negative.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:49-10:57
And I know, like, when we were cooped up in our houses for like 45 days, that's really all we did, was we like, you know, watched the news, read USA Today, whatever news source we could get.
Tiffany Seitz:
10:58-11:00
And that's really all that was coming at us.
Tiffany Seitz:
11:00-11:03
But I think it's so important to analyze those things, that I get to do this for another year.
Tiffany Seitz:
11:03-11:05
So I guess that's like a good thing for me.
Tiffany Seitz:
11:05-11:06
That is a good thing.
Tiffany Seitz:
11:06-11:11
But it gives me another year to kind of, you know, just to continue to make a difference across the state, which I'm really excited about.
Mark Ort:
11:12-11:19
When I, not to interrupt you, but when I first heard that you were gonna do this a second year, my immediate thought was Esther in the Bible.
Mark Ort:
11:20-11:28
It's like, you were born for such a time as this, and God is putting you there to influence and do the things that you do for another year.
Mark Ort:
11:28-11:29
That's
Pastor Jeff:
11:29-11:29
right.
Mark Ort:
11:29-11:30
That's pretty
Pastor Jeff:
11:30-11:30
cool.
Pastor Jeff:
11:30-11:31
That is really cool.
Tiffany Seitz:
11:31-11:33
Absolutely, I think that's perhaps the most exciting.
Tiffany Seitz:
11:33-11:53
I know that when I was going into Miss America back in December, I did some reading in the book of Esther and I loved, there's a verse in there in chapter two that says, "Esther found favor with everybody who saw her." And so, that's just my prayer as I go about this year that I find favor with God and that's, He's gonna use me in ways that I wasn't able to be used this year.
Tiffany Seitz:
11:53-11:56
So I'm excited for the victory lap here.
Pastor Jeff:
11:57-11:58
That is fantastic.
Pastor Jeff:
11:58-12:04
All right, Tiffany, so I guess since you're here, Answer this question for us.
Pastor Jeff:
12:04-12:05
Can we get that question back up?
Pastor Jeff:
12:06-12:11
How can we-- now there's actually two questions here, so let's just break it down here one at a time.
Pastor Jeff:
12:12-12:17
How can we as Christians actively combat white privilege and racism?
Pastor Jeff:
12:17-12:18
How would you respond to that?
Tiffany Seitz:
12:18-12:29
I think, personally speaking, acknowledging the fact that racism indeed does exist, and it is a mindset that has sadly plagued our nation for a long time, like over 400 years.
Tiffany Seitz:
12:29-12:33
So I mean, there's a historical context to racism that I think bears some understanding.
Tiffany Seitz:
12:33-12:42
And I think once we have a grasp on that and an understanding of that, it's gonna help us be able to, how are we gonna combat that in our personal lives?
Tiffany Seitz:
12:42-12:45
Because I think per person, it's gonna make a difference.
Tiffany Seitz:
12:45-12:47
We're not all the same people sitting in this room.
Tiffany Seitz:
12:47-12:50
We don't have the same way of going about things.
Tiffany Seitz:
12:50-13:00
But I think that we, it really, it deserves some time to understand and how we in our personal lives can go about how to fix that.
Tiffany Seitz:
13:00-13:08
So, again, like I say, I've said this to so many people who have asked me a similar question or a question such as this, you cannot cure ignorance in the masses.
Tiffany Seitz:
13:09-13:16
And I think as we do a heart check and as we look on the inside, or what are things that I can change and how can I combat this when I see it?
Tiffany Seitz:
13:16-13:22
I think first of all, acknowledging the fact that it is a relevant thing to talk about, it is something that still exists.
Tiffany Seitz:
13:22-13:27
But as we handle that in our day-to-day lives, as we see it, it's gonna look different from person to person.
Tiffany Seitz:
13:27-13:34
So I think doing your own research and, you know, just getting with God and saying, what can I do, I think is the first step to that.
Pastor Jeff:
13:35-13:38
It's funny, you said something that actually had in my notes here.
Pastor Jeff:
13:39-13:40
Everybody comes from different contexts, right?
Pastor Jeff:
13:41-13:43
We all have different backgrounds.
Pastor Jeff:
13:43-13:49
Some of us maybe were raised in a home where there was, you know, we saw racism in our parents and maybe not.
Pastor Jeff:
13:51-13:59
But one of the things that I wanted to ask you was what about the person that says, I don't really see racism as an issue?
Pastor Jeff:
14:00-14:14
Because you said, we've been battling it for 400 years, but I think there are a lot of people, and I shared this with you on the phone, I would be more in that camp because of some of my background, some of the people that I associated with and toured with and traveled with.
Pastor Jeff:
14:16-14:19
I didn't see racism as being an issue.
Pastor Jeff:
14:19-14:22
And like I shared with you, I would lean more towards that way.
Pastor Jeff:
14:23-14:28
And I made note of this, what was this, couple summers ago, Aaron, we were in Kennywood.
Pastor Jeff:
14:28-14:38
We noticed there were so many blended, I don't know the right term, I don't wanna say the wrong thing, but we saw a lot of black women, white men.
Pastor Jeff:
14:38-14:44
We saw, in line behind us, there was a white couple that had adopted a whole bunch of black children.
Pastor Jeff:
14:45-14:47
And we saw so much of that at Kennywood.
Pastor Jeff:
14:48-14:56
I don't know if I was looking for it that day, but I just remember my wife and I commenting, It's just really refreshing because you have people who are like, people are so racist.
Pastor Jeff:
14:56-15:01
I'm like, you couldn't come to Kennywood today and make that case because it just seemed like that was everywhere.
Pastor Jeff:
15:02-15:14
All that to say, Tiffany, you know, I'm sure there are some of us like, how I would lean to say, I don't really see racism as the issue that some people make it out to be.
Pastor Jeff:
15:15-15:16
How would you respond to that?
Tiffany Seitz:
15:17-15:21
I think for me, my perspective on this is a little bit different because my parents are white.
Tiffany Seitz:
15:22-15:25
So for me, I'm seeing it like a little bit on both sides.
Tiffany Seitz:
15:25-15:27
So, you know, I have another black brother.
Tiffany Seitz:
15:27-15:29
So I have three brothers.
Tiffany Seitz:
15:29-15:30
One is black, one is white.
Tiffany Seitz:
15:30-15:35
And then I have another one, he passed away from cancer when I was about seven years old, but he was also white.
Tiffany Seitz:
15:36-15:45
So I think for me in the context, I realized that it exists a little bit more than maybe you, just because I am a black person in a white family.
Tiffany Seitz:
15:45-15:59
So for me to, you know, I know that like when I was growing up and even still to this day, like when my mom and I go out places, People will look at us funny and they will automatically assume that we're not related, but it's really funny when I call her mom and people are like, "What?"
Tiffany Seitz:
16:00-16:01
[laughter]
Tiffany Seitz:
16:01-16:03
But I think it's...
Tiffany Seitz:
16:04-16:07
Sometimes racism isn't going to be the most apparent thing that you see.
Tiffany Seitz:
16:07-16:15
And even for me as a black woman living through this whole thing, and even before this, it really wasn't apparent to me. It's just little teeny tiny things.
Tiffany Seitz:
16:16-16:26
Sometimes I will get followed around retail stores, and people look at me pockets and mainly that's just because I'm always cold. I just, you know, I just...
Tiffany Seitz:
16:26-16:27
Do you think maybe they follow
Pastor Jeff:
16:27-16:28
you because they want an autograph?
Tiffany Seitz:
16:30-16:49
I wish that that was the reason. Maybe, maybe, although I did go into a Panera Bread once and somebody knew who I was. It was like a group of teenage boys that were preparing my food and they were like, "Are you Miss Pennsylvania?" and I was like, "Yes, how did you know that?" and they were like, "You were on the 11 o'clock news." I was like, "Well nice of you to tell me because nobody else did."
Pastor Jeff:
16:50-16:52
Now, does being Miss Pennsylvania get you free Panera?
Pastor Jeff:
16:54-16:54
No.
Tiffany Seitz:
16:54-16:56
It's gotten me like a free slushie.
Tiffany Seitz:
16:57-17:01
And I think so far that's it. A free slushie? Yes. That's it.
Tiffany Seitz:
17:02-17:06
Oh man. Yeah, it's not like pass and go, collect $200. I really wish that's what it got me.
Tiffany Seitz:
17:06-17:29
But sadly that's not the case. But you know, even in a position of status, there are still people, like I know several people after I won Miss Pennsylvania had told me like, "Oh, they only picked you because you were black." You know, and it's things like that and things that come up in conversation like that, that, you know, it kind of speaks to the fact that like those mindsets exist in people that might not think that they have them, but it comes out in remarks as
Pastor Jeff:
17:29-17:30
such, you know.
Pastor Jeff:
17:30-17:35
Right, and how do you respond to that? Somebody says, "Hey, they only picked you because you're black." How do you respond to that?
Tiffany Seitz:
17:35-17:46
I mean, that's something that I've gotten like so many times, not even from Miss Pennsylvania, but I did have one person tell me when I was in college that I was the token black person that they put on all the marketing because the school didn't have enough diversity.
Tiffany Seitz:
17:46-18:12
So, you know, I think it's just like I'm a human just as everybody else and at the end of the day color is only Skin-deep and that doesn't define who I am. It's not indicative of my character Right, and so, you know, I'm just like well, you know, you could think that way But like that's that's not the way it is and and you know it's it's kind of a hard thing to respond to because you're not gonna get somebody to understand in that instant like How that felt or like, you know what that meant?
Tiffany Seitz:
18:13-18:42
But you know, it's just letting them know that like at the end of the day regardless of whether I look like you or not I'm still a human and They might have put me on the college marketing because maybe they liked my pink shirt Not because I was like the only black one they could find, you know So I think it's it's important in dressing and addressing things like that because people might not realize how that sounds but you know We're all human and skin color does not dictate our worth and our value So, you know just reminding people of that any chance you get
Pastor Jeff:
18:42-18:47
Jesus Christ determines our worth and our value, right? So Amen
Mark Ort:
18:48-19:10
part of that question Tiffany it talks about white privilege in that and When I got the question, I'm looking at just sent me the email and I'm looking at on my phone And I just I like really had to lean back and take a deep breath Because for the first time I heard the word or the phrase a bunch of times, but I thought to myself What exactly is white privilege?
Mark Ort:
19:11-19:18
So I that's where I started to study a little bit on the internet like what is it? Where did it come from the term?
Mark Ort:
19:19-19:22
Why do we use it things like that when you see that?
Mark Ort:
19:23-19:26
term white privilege What goes through your mind?
Mark Ort:
19:28-19:29
Is it a thing
19:29-19:30
I?
19:30-19:31
Mean you
Tiffany Seitz:
19:31-20:30
know that terminology to me is is also fairly new I think you know as we've been looking at and watching the things going on in the world It seems at times that it's information overload even for me there's a lot of terminology that I'm seeing that is brand new to me that I've never even heard before and White privilege is one of those and I remember having a discussion in amongst my Miss America class where you know Somebody said to somebody else it was like some sort of an argument that was going on and they said to this this white girl they said your privilege is showing and I'm like What does that even mean? Like, you know, it's nothing that I've ever heard before. So for me, it's it's navigating new water But you know, I think sometimes The playing field hasn't always been even for black people and I think you know One example that I can use is a job resume and some in some of the research that I've done on this It says that you know You're more likely to get an interview from a job resume that has a white sounding name and I can use me for instance So my name hasn't always been Tiffany Sites.
Tiffany Seitz:
20:31-20:36
When I was born, my given name was Davere Lynn Witherspoon, no relation to Reese.
Tiffany Seitz:
20:37-20:48
And so, you look at a resume with Davere Witherspoon on it and you look at a resume with Tiffany Sites on it and one of those is more white sounding than the other.
Tiffany Seitz:
20:48-20:55
And apparently, the more white sounding ones are the ones that get the most, that are more likely to be called back for an interview.
Tiffany Seitz:
20:55-21:04
So I think that even in instances like those many, I think that like that in and of itself might be a form of privilege.
Tiffany Seitz:
21:05-21:09
But again, this is something, the idea of white privilege is something that I'm also educating myself on.
Tiffany Seitz:
21:10-21:18
But I think it bears acknowledgement to the fact that like, we can look around the room, we can look at like the last 400 years, we can look at the history.
Tiffany Seitz:
21:18-21:21
I mean, segregation is not that far away from us.
Tiffany Seitz:
21:21-21:24
And we can see that the playing field hasn't always been even for black people.
Tiffany Seitz:
21:24-21:29
So, I think that in that respect, maybe that is what white privilege means.
Pastor Jeff:
21:29-21:37
Have you had people reel accusations against you, saying the only reason you've gotten your opportunities is because you're basically the beneficiary of white privilege, right?
Pastor Jeff:
21:38-21:38
White parents?
Pastor Jeff:
21:38-21:38
Sure.
Pastor Jeff:
21:39-21:42
I mean, have you had people, you know, sort of bring that accusation to you?
Tiffany Seitz:
21:43-22:27
Yeah, I mean, I've had a lot of people say that, like, you know, my senior year at Grove City College was paid for, and I had one of those scholarships was a minority scholarship, but the scholarship that actually paid for my senior year to do with a minority. It was an entrepreneurship endowment, which was my major. But you know, I had several people say to me when I went told them that, and I didn't tell many people, but they were like, "Well, you know, you get this favor because you're a minority." And I'm like, "Well, no. Maybe it's just because somebody likes me. I don't know. Maybe I happen to rub elbows with the right people." You know? But yeah, you know, those are our things that I've heard. But again, And maybe people do see that as a benefit of white privilege and not something that I'm receiving.
Tiffany Seitz:
22:28-22:28
But you know.
Pastor Jeff:
22:29-22:33
How much of this recent-- we didn't get to this other question yet.
Pastor Jeff:
22:33-22:34
I want to get to that in a second.
Pastor Jeff:
22:35-22:38
I want to make sure to ask you this question, Tiffany.
Pastor Jeff:
22:39-23:28
This recent surge and the result of the George Floyd death and the Brooks man in Atlanta, and the reaction things. How much of this recent surge and some of the destruction and rioting and things like that, how much of that do you think might be politically motivated? Or maybe as a result of, this is just an opinion that I hold, I think a lot of it is people have been locked down with COVID for three months and a lot of people that have no interest in race issues at all are like, "Woohoo, we can I hate to say that, but I don't think everybody out there protesting and rioting gives a rip about race.
Pastor Jeff:
23:28-23:30
I think there's a lot of people that...
Pastor Jeff:
23:30-23:31
How would you respond to that?
Tiffany Seitz:
23:32-23:32
Absolutely.
Tiffany Seitz:
23:32-23:38
I think for me, watching the news and watching the things that are going on in the world, it's so disheartening to me.
Tiffany Seitz:
23:39-23:49
One of the things and one of the thoughts I shared on this issue was the reaction after George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery, which are three of which we've seen in a very short time.
Tiffany Seitz:
23:50-23:56
I'm not one to think that the destruction of property is going to fix the issue of racism.
Tiffany Seitz:
23:56-24:01
It's only going to confirm stereotypes that people already have about black people.
Tiffany Seitz:
24:02-24:09
And I think that that's perhaps the most disappointing thing to see is that you're not accomplishing things by destruction.
Tiffany Seitz:
24:10-24:19
I think that we need to destroy the idea of racism and that's great, but it's not coming in like tying a rope around a statue and pulling it down on yourself and other people around you.
Tiffany Seitz:
24:21-24:41
So I think for that type of thing, I think we really need to look inside of our hearts and do a heart check within ourselves and say, "How can I combat this in a way that Jesus would? How would Jesus approach this?" I think that's the really important question that we as Christians need to be asking ourselves, and I've been asking myself that as well.
Tiffany Seitz:
24:41-25:02
Because I think, even for me, it's opened my eyes to the injustice, not just with black people, but just injustices in general. How are we going to stand up to those after seeing these things? We're living history right now. It's a chapter out of a history book. It's one that I would love to be done with. But again, if God brings us to it, he will bring us through it.
Tiffany Seitz:
25:03-25:23
There's something to be learned from this season, whether we enjoy going through it or not, but I think it's a big learning lesson for us. And it's been an eye-opener for us as well. How are we going to stand up to injustice, not just racial injustice, but all types of injustice, because there's more than just racial injustice that exists in this country.
Tiffany Seitz:
25:23-25:30
So I think we need to be aware of it all, and we need to combat it all, because that's how we're going to create a better world to live in.
Mark Ort:
25:31-25:39
Tiffany, I had a question on my notes here, and specifically because you're my daughter's dance instructor.
Pastor Jeff:
25:40-25:41
Are you going to ask her to dance?
Pastor Jeff:
25:42-25:42
No, don't do that.
25:42-25:43
(laughing)
Mark Ort:
25:43-25:44
One up here.
Pastor Jeff:
25:44-25:44
Not stretched.
Mark Ort:
25:46-25:56
It made me wonder, like when I would take her to dance class and drop her off, some of those times I would sit in those chairs on the side you know, and I would watch.
Mark Ort:
25:57-26:09
And I was very impressed with your dance acumen, or I don't know if that's the right word or whatever, but you're very, you were really, really talented in teaching the kids.
Mark Ort:
26:10-26:18
And you showed this firmness, but yet this love for the kids, which made me really happy, especially for my daughter.
Mark Ort:
26:19-26:21
But that leads me to my question.
Mark Ort:
26:22-26:28
Do you see racism among the younger generation?
Mark Ort:
26:29-26:35
Or do you see it mostly from people that are my age or in the older school of thought?
Mark Ort:
26:36-26:42
Do you see progress being made with the younger generation, I guess is what I'm trying to ask.
Tiffany Seitz:
26:42-26:42
Sure.
Tiffany Seitz:
26:42-26:43
That's actually a really interesting question.
Tiffany Seitz:
26:44-26:46
And I had this discussion with my mom.
Tiffany Seitz:
26:46-26:50
We have quite a few people that we babysit and we've babysat them since they've been born.
Tiffany Seitz:
26:51-26:56
And it's really caused us to feel that racism is definitely something that is taught.
Tiffany Seitz:
26:57-27:00
And for older people, that goes back generations and generations.
Tiffany Seitz:
27:01-27:05
I know that my mom has shared stories with me about the reaction of her family adopting me.
Tiffany Seitz:
27:06-27:14
And it was like, "Oh, she's so dark." Or, "Take her back where she came from." Those are things that we had heard.
Tiffany Seitz:
27:16-27:22
But again, we're not looking at this baby seeing, "Oh, she's black." We're looking at a baby seeing a baby.
Tiffany Seitz:
27:22-27:23
You know what I mean?
Tiffany Seitz:
27:23-27:24
So I think that that's like...
Tiffany Seitz:
27:24-27:29
But again, that's generations of what was taught to you to think about black people over history.
Tiffany Seitz:
27:29-27:34
But what I've noticed, and even my dance teaching, I teach little kids on Tuesdays.
Tiffany Seitz:
27:34-27:36
They're so cute, but Libby's age is cute too.
Tiffany Seitz:
27:38-27:39
For different reasons.
Tiffany Seitz:
27:40-27:48
But, you know, I realize that people, like kids don't notice a color difference until like around the, between the ages of seven and nine.
Tiffany Seitz:
27:48-27:53
So when kids run into dance class, they're not looking like, "Oh, my dance teacher's black." They're not looking at that.
Tiffany Seitz:
27:54-28:01
You know, they're looking at like, "Oh, she's my dance teacher." You know, and I think that like the older they get, the more that they realize like we look different.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:01-28:04
And that's totally fine to acknowledge the fact that we look different.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:04-28:08
I mean, I remember having a little kid that we babysit.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:08-28:10
His name is Lucas, sweetest person ever.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:10-28:11
And he's like 11 now.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:11-28:14
But I remember a few years back, we were in the kitchen, and he asked my mom.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:14-28:16
He's like, mom-- or he said, Nana.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:16-28:16
He calls her Nana.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:16-28:18
He's like, Nana, why is Tiffany a different color?
Tiffany Seitz:
28:19-28:22
And then my mom was like, well, that's the way that God made her.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:22-28:27
And of course, I'm like, well, I was the piece of toast that stayed in the toaster too long.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:28-28:29
That was my answer.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:29-28:33
But my mom always comes in clutch with the loving educational answers.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:33-28:35
And there's me and my snark.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:36-28:42
But again, kids don't realize it until a certain age.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:42-28:44
And they don't care regardless.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:45-28:52
And I think that that's almost the attitude that we need to adopt, that we shouldn't look at somebody's race and automatically assume that they're lesser than.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:52-28:56
We can acknowledge the fact that they're different, and we can celebrate the fact that they're different.
Tiffany Seitz:
28:57-29:11
Because I think that that, in and of itself, Demonstrates God's handiwork that we don't all look the same. He does have some air of originality He might have spent more time working on you than he did on me, but you know regardless We're still he'll work.
Pastor Jeff:
29:11-29:17
He's still working on me. Trust me. He's got a lot of work to do with me He's gracious to do
Tiffany Seitz:
29:17-29:48
absolutely and I think that just like it shows his craftsmanship and the fact that he has made everybody so different And so unique and I think that that's something that we can celebrate But when we look at it, it's not that we're gonna like assume stereotypes And we're gonna assume that this person is lesser than because of the color of their skin And I think that history has kind of taught us to do that in some respect and mindset has taught us to do that but I really think that that's a mindset that we need to work on moving away from and Celebrating our differences in a way that glorifies God,
Pastor Jeff:
29:48-29:59
right? You know I had a Quote on here. I was gonna ask you to respond to you that you sort of kind of just did, but you know, you hear people say, "I don't see color." How do you respond to that?
Tiffany Seitz:
30:01-30:05
I mean, almost for me, that's like, that is usually the way I respond.
Tiffany Seitz:
30:05-30:09
I mean, I've grown up in like predominantly white areas and I work in a predominantly white area.
Tiffany Seitz:
30:10-30:20
So for me, I look at people and I'm like, "Eh, you look different, it's no big deal." You know, and for people that like don't see color, like that's fine.
Tiffany Seitz:
30:21-30:23
But if you do, that's great too.
Tiffany Seitz:
30:24-30:24
You know what I mean?
Tiffany Seitz:
30:24-30:30
I think it's just, like I said, we can acknowledge the fact that we indeed look different, and I think that that's good.
Tiffany Seitz:
30:30-30:38
I think it celebrates the fact that God is good and that he's an amazing creator and it shows his handiwork and his hard work on us.
Tiffany Seitz:
30:38-30:41
So I think that we can see color.
Tiffany Seitz:
30:41-30:42
It's not a bad thing.
Tiffany Seitz:
30:42-30:56
And what I would hate to happen is after this ongoing discussion kind of comes to a lull is the fact that we're taboo about saying, oh, often people tell me, you have such beautiful skin, or your skin is so radiant, or this and that.
Tiffany Seitz:
30:56-30:58
And I'm like, well, you have beautiful skin, too.
Tiffany Seitz:
30:58-31:00
Do you not see this zit right here?
Tiffany Seitz:
31:00-31:01
You know what I mean?
Tiffany Seitz:
31:01-31:02
It's things like that.
Tiffany Seitz:
31:02-31:04
But it's OK to celebrate the differences.
Tiffany Seitz:
31:04-31:06
And it's a good thing to celebrate those.
Tiffany Seitz:
31:06-31:11
And I don't want people to feel like it's offensive to say, wow, you're so beautiful.
Tiffany Seitz:
31:11-31:12
Your skin is so beautiful.
Tiffany Seitz:
31:12-31:13
Like, it's not.
Tiffany Seitz:
31:13-31:14
Like, it's a celebration of God's creation.
Tiffany Seitz:
31:14-31:18
And I think that that's a really, really good thing to do.
Tiffany Seitz:
31:18-31:24
And it's a good thing to make a habit of, but where it becomes a problem is when we look at somebody and we just assume that they're a certain stereotype.
Tiffany Seitz:
31:24-31:25
You know what I mean?
Tiffany Seitz:
31:25-31:37
I'm sure there have been in the research that I've done and even in people's reactions, like I've had kids, like little teeny tiny, like under 10 year olds that are blaming China for the coronavirus, you know?
Tiffany Seitz:
31:37-31:41
And they look at Chinese Americans and they're like, you're responsible for COVID-19.
Tiffany Seitz:
31:41-31:50
And you know, like that's not something that we wanna do, like regardless of color or nationality, like we can celebrate those differences at the end of the day we're all children of God and that's what we need to focus on.
Pastor Jeff:
31:52-32:15
Let's look at the second part of that question. How are we at Harvest able to make a difference despite the lack of diversity in our church and immediate community? And I gotta say, before you answer this, this question kind of stung me because I had another Harvest pastor years ago sharply rebuke me because we didn't have more black people in our church.
Pastor Jeff:
32:15-32:21
And my response was like, "We don't exclude anybody, right?
Pastor Jeff:
32:21-32:57
We don't intentionally try to keep people away." But I've got to tell you, Tiffany, when I look at this question, and as pastor of this church, and I think about our demographic, and the makeup of our church, and I think about what the Scripture says about every tribe and nation and skin color and everything else around the throne of Christ, I have to ask myself, is there something that we're doing as a church culture that would make a black person, or an Asian person, or a Latino person, or any person, is there something that we're doing as a church culture that would make people feel uncomfortable?
Pastor Jeff:
32:58-33:18
And that's why this question, like I said, it kind of hit me in a place where I was like, "Yeah, you know, where is the diversity, and are we doing something to prevent it?" And this question is proactively asking how are we able to actually make a difference despite where we are diversity-wise.
Pastor Jeff:
33:18-33:19
Would you please speak to that?
Tiffany Seitz:
33:20-33:20
Yeah.
Tiffany Seitz:
33:20-33:25
You know, I think, like you said, it largely has to do with the demographic of this area.
Tiffany Seitz:
33:26-33:30
There might not be a whole lot of black people around the Wexford area, and that is okay.
Tiffany Seitz:
33:30-33:35
And I don't think that it's anything in particular that you're doing as a church that would make them feel unwelcome.
Tiffany Seitz:
33:36-33:45
But I think maybe sometimes black people might feel a little bit of comfort in gravitating towards where there would be more diversity.
Tiffany Seitz:
33:46-33:49
And so if there isn't more diversity here, they might not come.
Tiffany Seitz:
33:49-33:52
But I don't think it's anything that you're doing.
Tiffany Seitz:
33:52-33:57
I just think that it's a comfort zone for some people to be around people who look like them.
Tiffany Seitz:
33:58-34:00
And I think that we can all speak to that to some extent.
Tiffany Seitz:
34:00-34:05
But I don't think it's anything that your church is doing wrong or exclusionary to them.
Tiffany Seitz:
34:05-34:05
Can you
Pastor Jeff:
34:05-34:07
call this pastor that rebuked me and tell him that?
Tiffany Seitz:
34:08-34:09
Yes,
Pastor Jeff:
34:09-34:09
I would love
Tiffany Seitz:
34:09-34:10
to have a conversation.
Tiffany Seitz:
34:11-34:11
No, I'd
Pastor Jeff:
34:11-34:12
appreciate it.
Pastor Jeff:
34:12-34:13
I'll give you his number after service.
Tiffany Seitz:
34:13-34:13
Hey, sounds good.
Tiffany Seitz:
34:14-34:14
Yes.
Tiffany Seitz:
34:15-34:17
We'll do a Zoom call because apparently those are popular these days.
Tiffany Seitz:
34:19-34:23
Yes, all of my masters and doctorate and like Zoom by the end of this pandemic season.
Tiffany Seitz:
34:23-34:32
But I think it's just, it really largely has to do with the fact that the demographic might not call for it and that's totally fine.
Tiffany Seitz:
34:32-34:36
and people might gravitate towards this church because they really like it.
Tiffany Seitz:
34:36-34:41
Or they might want more diversity in a church, but you can't control that because of the area that you live in.
Tiffany Seitz:
34:41-34:44
You know what I mean? So there's nothing that you should be at fault for.
Pastor Jeff:
34:44-34:51
And I feel like it can sort of make evangelism disingenuous.
Pastor Jeff:
34:51-34:55
If I'm like, "Hey, you're black. I want you to come to my church." You know what I mean? Is that my motivation?
Pastor Jeff:
34:56-34:59
To share the love of Christ with you because of your ethnic background?
Pastor Jeff:
34:59-35:05
My motivation should be, you know, God commanded us to preach the gospel to all creatures, right?
Pastor Jeff:
35:05-35:07
So that should motivate me.
Pastor Jeff:
35:07-35:16
And I feel like if we're just trying to target people for certain reasons, I think maybe our motivation is in question.
Pastor Jeff:
35:17-35:21
You know, what I share with this person, regardless of their skin color, right?
Pastor Jeff:
35:21-35:36
So what can we as a church do, because we're seeing what's going on, We're watching the news, we're seeing the rioting, we're hearing of the protesting just down the road.
Pastor Jeff:
35:38-35:39
What can we as a church do about it?
Tiffany Seitz:
35:41-35:46
Yeah, you know, I had a conversation about this either last week or a couple weeks ago.
Tiffany Seitz:
35:46-36:07
I think that when we look at the news and we see what's going on and we're looking at social media especially, I know that that's what I'm looking at a whole lot of the time, and I'm just seeing these exhaustive checklists for how we can be better people and better allies and all this stuff that's, again, terminology that is really relatively new to me as well.
Tiffany Seitz:
36:08-36:15
And I don't think that there's like, there's not really like a right blanket answer that I can give to this question.
Tiffany Seitz:
36:15-36:19
I really think that the issue of racism, and you know, there are people that disagree.
Tiffany Seitz:
36:19-36:25
I know that this has been a discussion amongst my Miss America class because we only have eight black women in it.
Tiffany Seitz:
36:25-36:33
So it's been a discussion amongst our class and there are several of the girls that believe that racism is not a hard issue.
Tiffany Seitz:
36:34-36:35
And I think it is a hard issue.
Tiffany Seitz:
36:35-36:36
It absolutely is a hard issue.
Tiffany Seitz:
36:36-36:37
Very much is a hard issue.
Tiffany Seitz:
36:38-36:45
So when we're addressing the topic of what can we as individuals do to fix this, be introspective.
Tiffany Seitz:
36:46-36:52
I watched a really impactful video on Facebook one day and it was a white professor addressing white college students.
Tiffany Seitz:
36:53-37:12
And she simply said, "Stand up if you would like "to be treated as a black person in the United States." And there was silence and nobody stood up because nobody wants to be treated differently because at the end of the day, I think it forced them to realize, and even me as well, that we're all human beings.
Tiffany Seitz:
37:13-37:19
And that the color of our skin is not indicative of the quality of our character or the kind of individual that we are.
Tiffany Seitz:
37:20-37:25
So when posed the question, and this is a question that I've gotten from so many people, is like, what can we do?
Tiffany Seitz:
37:25-37:26
What can we do?
Tiffany Seitz:
37:26-37:27
What can we do?
Tiffany Seitz:
37:27-37:28
Be introspective.
Tiffany Seitz:
37:29-37:40
Check your own heart and get rid of those things that might cause you to see somebody as less than a creation that God has made and that God glorifies in and revels in every single day.
Tiffany Seitz:
37:41-37:44
Because those are things that nobody else can fix for you.
Tiffany Seitz:
37:44-37:52
So if you wanna look at an Instagram checklist and say, these are the things that I need to do in order to not be racist, To me, that's grossly ineffective.
Tiffany Seitz:
37:56-37:58
It's gonna look different for everybody.
Tiffany Seitz:
37:58-38:01
So following a checklist, I don't think it's gonna work.
Tiffany Seitz:
38:01-38:03
You've gotta look inside your own heart.
Tiffany Seitz:
38:03-38:09
You've gotta do the work to remove those things that might be hateful and that might make somebody look different because of their color.
Tiffany Seitz:
38:09-38:11
You've gotta put the legwork in to remove those things.
Tiffany Seitz:
38:11-38:15
It's not gonna be a checklist on how to do this that's gonna do it for you.
Mark Ort:
38:15-38:16
Right, right.
Mark Ort:
38:16-38:25
So the introspection is really good But it's something that, you know, we've had conversations with our family about this very thing.
Mark Ort:
38:26-38:29
And the ability to listen to the other side.
Mark Ort:
38:30-38:40
And that, you know, you mentioned social media and one of the hashtags that goes around is I saw the silence is violence.
Mark Ort:
38:41-38:42
What do you say to that?
Mark Ort:
38:42-38:47
Like, you know, you know, silence can be good.
Mark Ort:
38:47-38:53
Do we want to be entirely quiet or do we need to speak up as a church on these matters?
Tiffany Seitz:
38:54-39:02
Yeah, I mean that's a really good point and I know that I've seen the quote quite a bit on social media that like silence is the language of the oppressor, right?
Tiffany Seitz:
39:02-39:11
I've seen it everywhere and I think it's a quote that does not really sit well with me and has not sat well with me watching this go on.
Tiffany Seitz:
39:12-39:22
Because I think largely what's being interpreted as silence is a lack of addressing it on social media. And I had, which is like, again, a social media has become the age of like doing.
Tiffany Seitz:
39:23-39:53
And I think people are equating posting on social media about these things to actual action. So if you're not posting about it, then you don't care. And I've had quite a few people tell me that. And I'm like, no, it's not that I don't care. It's that I'm taking the time to educate myself. I'm taking the time to learn. And then I'm going to share with you what my heart feels to be true. And obviously I'm going to look to scripture for answers because scripture is the only book that has the answers on how to fix these issues.
Tiffany Seitz:
39:54-39:59
So if we're looking elsewhere, we're wrong. I think we need to spend less time on social media.
Tiffany Seitz:
39:59-40:06
We need to spend more time in prayer. We need to spend more time in the word. And that is the only way that you are going to see a difference made in this world.
Tiffany Seitz:
40:08-40:23
I think that's it. Point blank, period. If we're looking to social media for the answers that only God has, and it's really in a book that is sold in like Ollie's and like Barnes and Noble, like you can get a Bible anywhere.
Tiffany Seitz:
40:23-40:23
Right.
Tiffany Seitz:
40:23-40:27
Like, go get one and the answers are right in front of you.
Tiffany Seitz:
40:27-40:27
Right.
Tiffany Seitz:
40:27-40:37
Because it's not going to be a social media checklist, it's not going to be a nice graphic that somebody made on Canva saying this is how to not be racist, follow these instructions and you're good.
Pastor Jeff:
40:37-40:37
Right.
Pastor Jeff:
40:37-40:42
It's going to be being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
Pastor Jeff:
40:42-41:39
what God wants for you, Romans 8.29. And it's only through that that, you know, we walk by the power of the Holy Spirit. It's funny you say that, you know, not going by the checklist, that's like kind of Old Testament thinking, right? Don't do this on the Sabbath, don't do this on the Sabbath. And the Bible says we don't live like that anymore. We live under the power of the Holy Spirit, right? We have God's presence indwelling us, so it is, you the way Christ did, and he did. You know, you see, you know, even we studied in John him sitting down at the well with the Samaritan woman. I mean, that was a huge thing. But we see, you know, his grace, and we see just him very naturally reaching out to somebody very different than him, but he had something for her, as we do as a church. Do we have any questions? We are like a little OT here, and that's okay, I don't hear anybody complaining.
Pastor Jeff:
41:40-41:42
Do we have any questions that were texted in?
Pastor Jeff:
41:43-41:43
Oh, they're up there?
Pastor Jeff:
41:44-41:45
Okay, I'm sorry, I'm looking at...
Pastor Jeff:
41:46-41:47
Okay, Tiffany, you ready?
Pastor Jeff:
41:48-41:48
Ready.
Pastor Jeff:
41:48-41:57
One of my new co-workers, in a nutshell, is less than professional in her behavior, attendance, attire, work ethic, etc.
Pastor Jeff:
41:57-42:04
I realize she isn't doing these things due to her race, but the struggle is that she bluntly said, "If they fire me, I will just play the race card.
Pastor Jeff:
42:05-42:07
This is such a struggle for me." Wow.
Pastor Jeff:
42:07-42:08
How do you respond to that?
42:09-42:10
I
Tiffany Seitz:
42:10-42:13
personally am not a fan of pulling the race card.
Tiffany Seitz:
42:14-42:23
Because if you're going to be fired from this job because of your behavior, attendance, attire, work ethic, et cetera, it's not because you're black.
Tiffany Seitz:
42:23-42:26
It's because you're clearly bad at work.
Tiffany Seitz:
42:28-42:30
I think that that really speaks for itself.
Tiffany Seitz:
42:30-42:35
And I just don't love using the color of your skin as a crutch, right?
Tiffany Seitz:
42:35-42:46
to come back and say like, "Oh, they fired me because I'm black." No, and I think that that's, again, a negative that might possibly come out of this season is more people doing that.
Tiffany Seitz:
42:47-42:55
And I personally am not a fan of that, but again, you're not gonna prevent that from happening, sadly.
Tiffany Seitz:
42:55-43:05
But again, I think it's pretty clear there are a lot of reasons why she's gonna be fired, and none of them have to do with the fact that she's black.
43:06-43:06
The
Pastor Jeff:
43:06-43:08
person that submitted this question, should they address this person?
Pastor Jeff:
43:09-43:10
Or can they?
Tiffany Seitz:
43:11-43:18
I mean, in the event that she came and told you, I'm gonna pull the race card if they fire me, then by all means, yeah, address it with her.
Tiffany Seitz:
43:18-43:24
I think that that's perfectly appropriate if she's come to you and said, if they fire me, I'm gonna do this.
Tiffany Seitz:
43:24-43:26
I think it's appropriate to address that.
Tiffany Seitz:
43:26-43:36
But if it's a generalized statement and she said it to multiple people, And I think that it would be a touchy subject if it were addressed to her personally after just generalizing the statement.
Tiffany Seitz:
43:36-43:42
It might be a little bit touchy, but if it was something that was personally addressed to you, then yes, by all means, I would definitely address that.
Tiffany Seitz:
43:42-43:54
Because I just, again, if we don't wanna be looked at for the color of our skin being different, then I don't think that we should pull the race card if we're gonna be fired for things that are bad.
Tiffany Seitz:
43:54-43:55
Right,
Pastor Jeff:
43:55-43:55
right.
Pastor Jeff:
43:57-43:58
Yeah, that's a really good question.
Tiffany Seitz:
43:59-43:59
Great
Pastor Jeff:
43:59-43:59
answer.
Pastor Jeff:
43:59-44:00
Any more that came in?
Pastor Jeff:
44:02-44:08
Okay, Tiffany, how has your life been impacted by racism and how are you overcoming or dealing with this?
Pastor Jeff:
44:08-44:09
That's a really good question.
Tiffany Seitz:
44:09-44:11
Yeah, that's an excellent question.
Tiffany Seitz:
44:11-44:17
You know, I have not, thankfully, experienced racism on a great deal.
Tiffany Seitz:
44:17-44:19
I've never experienced overt racism.
Tiffany Seitz:
44:20-44:26
It's only been like little things like being followed around in retail stores because they think I'm going to steal something.
Tiffany Seitz:
44:28-44:37
The new one is asking me every three minutes if I want help while I'm browsing the clearance rack because they think I'm just gonna walk out of here with the security tags on.
Tiffany Seitz:
44:39-44:40
From the clearance rack.
Tiffany Seitz:
44:40-44:41
Exactly, from the clearance rack.
Tiffany Seitz:
44:42-44:43
I mean, I'm a thrift shopper.
Tiffany Seitz:
44:45-44:50
Not rich, but I do have the money to buy what you think I'm going to steal or something.
Tiffany Seitz:
44:50-44:50
I don't know.
Tiffany Seitz:
44:52-44:54
But it's just little teeny tiny things.
Tiffany Seitz:
44:57-45:01
How I've handled those over the years is you kind of have to let it roll off your back like water.
Tiffany Seitz:
45:01-45:06
I think we live in the age of offense where people are offended by everything.
Pastor Jeff:
45:07-45:07
And
Tiffany Seitz:
45:07-45:14
if you're going to be offended by everything, then I would almost say that you're part of the problem.
Tiffany Seitz:
45:14-45:22
I think that there are things that will be out of our control that we aren't going to be able to do what we want with those.
Tiffany Seitz:
45:22-45:26
And at the end of the day, I just really think that we've got to let God handle the things that aren't ours.
Tiffany Seitz:
45:27-45:28
You know, vengeance is not ours.
Tiffany Seitz:
45:28-45:31
He'll take care of those people that are wronging us and that are hurting us.
Tiffany Seitz:
45:31-45:33
It's not our job to do that.
Tiffany Seitz:
45:34-45:53
But you know, again, I have the choice to either live in the era of being offended all the time by what I'm seeing, or I can just go about my life being a normal human being and recognizing that everybody around me is beautiful, everybody around me is created differently, and that's something that I'm going to continue to celebrate regardless.
Tiffany Seitz:
45:54-45:57
And if people don't want to celebrate that with me, then that's okay.
Tiffany Seitz:
45:57-45:58
God will deal with them on that.
Tiffany Seitz:
45:59-46:00
It's not my job to change their mind.
Tiffany Seitz:
46:00-46:04
And certainly I, as one person, am not going to cure the ignorance of a thousand people.
Tiffany Seitz:
46:05-46:13
So again, it's my choice to be offended, but I'm going to continue to walk in what I know to be the truth, and that truth is God's Word.
Mark Ort:
46:14-46:22
To that point, Tiffany, one of the questions that I really have had during this whole thing that's going on in the news lately.
Mark Ort:
46:23-46:26
And you mentioned the word offense this morning.
Mark Ort:
46:26-46:34
And so the burning question for me is what sorts of things would offend you if there are anything?
Mark Ort:
46:35-46:41
Just so that I know, maybe I don't know I'm offending somebody of another race.
Mark Ort:
46:41-46:43
What sort of things offend you?
Tiffany Seitz:
46:45-46:45
Sure.
Tiffany Seitz:
46:45-46:57
I mean, like I said, it's very little I get offended by simply because I've been just asked a myriad of questions and I know that they're obviously asked with good intent and people know my background prior to asking questions.
Tiffany Seitz:
46:58-47:04
They know that I have white parents, they know that I have one black sibling and I am a black woman in a mixed family.
Tiffany Seitz:
47:04-47:08
So I mean for me it's just like, it doesn't really bother me.
Tiffany Seitz:
47:08-47:21
But I think if there were like any things that bother me, it's just like, to look at somebody and you can see it sometimes as well, to look at somebody and just automatically assume that they're less than, I think is like the biggest offense to me.
Tiffany Seitz:
47:22-47:25
And that won't come out in like very specific things.
Tiffany Seitz:
47:26-47:29
It's kind of just like the way that we do life sometimes.
Tiffany Seitz:
47:29-47:36
It's just kind of, you know, it's something that's ingrained in us that we might not even realize that it's happening.
Tiffany Seitz:
47:36-47:43
But I think just, you know, kind of killing the mindset that there are people in this world that are less than when God created us all equal.
Tiffany Seitz:
47:44-47:49
And I don't think that it should have taken until like 2020 to realize that's the case, you know.
Tiffany Seitz:
47:49-47:59
So, you know, I can't really think of anything immediately that like would offend me, but I'm also one that's just like, you know, ask me anything because I'm not offended.
Tiffany Seitz:
47:59-47:59
You know
Mark Ort:
47:59-48:00
what I mean?
Mark Ort:
48:00-48:11
What about like television shows like Dukes of Hazzard or, you know, the cancel culture or products that have black people on them that, you know, they're removing certain products off the shelves.
Mark Ort:
48:11-48:15
Do those sorts of things bother you, offend you?
Mark Ort:
48:15-48:21
I mean, are they doing a good thing by, you know, like taking Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben off of products?
Mark Ort:
48:22-48:24
Like, is that okay with you?
Mark Ort:
48:24-48:25
Or is that something we should be doing?
Mark Ort:
48:26-48:34
I never, like, you know, I've had those products and I never once looked at them and thought, oh, that's racist, but maybe that's, maybe I have something to work on.
Tiffany Seitz:
48:35-48:45
Sure, you know, I was thinking to myself the other day, I was reading about the whole Aunt Jemima situation and I was thinking, I was like, the first thought that came to my mind was like, are we really now offended by maple syrup?
Tiffany Seitz:
48:45-48:47
Like that's literally the first thing that crossed my mind.
Tiffany Seitz:
48:47-48:47
We are.
Tiffany Seitz:
48:47-48:50
I was like, people, come on.
Tiffany Seitz:
48:50-48:57
Like, you know, if you actually read the history behind Aunt Jemima, it's really fascinating history.
Tiffany Seitz:
48:57-49:00
And it's actually like, she did a lot of amazing things.
Tiffany Seitz:
49:01-49:04
And having her on maple syrup is not racist.
Tiffany Seitz:
49:04-49:16
But again, these are people that are looking at things and they're taking them at face value and they're saying, oh, she's an example of modern day slavery in 1860, so we need to rip her off the maple syrup bottle.
Tiffany Seitz:
49:16-49:29
But I'm like, if you actually took the time to read about the fact that Aunt Jemima did really amazing things-- and I could be historically inaccurate here, but I believe that she helped with the Underground Railroad, you know, something like that.
Tiffany Seitz:
49:29-49:30
She did
Pastor Jeff:
49:30-49:33
really-- She became one of the first black millionaires.
Pastor Jeff:
49:33-49:33
Yes.
Pastor Jeff:
49:33-49:36
She went from slave to millionaire.
Pastor Jeff:
49:36-49:37
Yeah, that's amazing.
Pastor Jeff:
49:37-49:38
She should be celebrated for that.
Pastor Jeff:
49:38-49:39
We should
Tiffany Seitz:
49:39-49:40
be applauding that.
Tiffany Seitz:
49:40-49:41
Absolutely, that's amazing.
Tiffany Seitz:
49:41-49:45
And again, it's just, you know, we have a choice to be offended by certain things.
Tiffany Seitz:
49:45-49:52
And I don't think that we should be taking like prominent black people off of bottles, especially if their contributions were really, really amazing.
Tiffany Seitz:
49:53-49:56
And you know, the way in which they look might need to be updated, sure.
Tiffany Seitz:
49:57-50:00
But how far are we going to get?
Tiffany Seitz:
50:00-50:07
And how are we going to, you know, continue to address ignorance if we're busy being offended by maple syrup?
Tiffany Seitz:
50:08-50:09
know what I mean? I think that like... And it's not even
Pastor Jeff:
50:09-50:21
a race thing because in the past couple weeks I found out Spongebob Squarepants is gay. Did you know that? No, I did not know that. Yeah, they came out Spongebob is gay and... Interesting. Sponge?
50:22-50:22
What's that?
Mark Ort:
50:22-50:23
A sponge?
Pastor Jeff:
50:24-50:37
Yes. Okay. Spongebob Squarepants is gay and Elmer Fudd and Yosemite Sam aren't allowed to have guns in the Looney Tunes remake. Interesting. And I'm like Why are we so focused on cartoons?
Pastor Jeff:
50:38-50:40
There are real people with real problems out there.
Pastor Jeff:
50:40-50:40
>> Oh, sure.
Pastor Jeff:
50:41-50:41
I know.
Pastor Jeff:
50:41-50:43
>> And we're attacking cartoons.
Tiffany Seitz:
50:43-50:57
>> I know that there was -- I was reading Disney is thinking of -- I think it's one of their roller coasters in Walt Disney World that they're considering rebranding because it has -- the movie that's based off of is Song of the South, which is a vaulted Disney movie.
Tiffany Seitz:
50:58-51:04
And in that movie it talks -- you know, it's the mistreatment of black people and it very much addresses the age of slavery and kind of makes a joke about it.
Tiffany Seitz:
51:04-51:14
So people have been offended by that movie, so now they think that we should make it a Princess Tiana ride, which I wouldn't be offended by because people told me I look like that.
Tiffany Seitz:
51:14-51:14
So that's awesome.
Tiffany Seitz:
51:17-51:24
But just again, just taking-- again, I would never have known that that ride was based off of that movie had I never read about it.
Tiffany Seitz:
51:25-51:28
But is it one step too far?
Tiffany Seitz:
51:28-51:36
I mean, I think that addressing active racism between us, But I mean, a Disney ride is, you know, that people have never even looked at until now.
Tiffany Seitz:
51:38-51:40
I think our energies would be a lot more useful elsewhere.
Tiffany Seitz:
51:41-51:41
Yeah,
Pastor Jeff:
51:41-51:43
yeah, I think so.
Pastor Jeff:
51:44-51:44
I think so.
Pastor Jeff:
51:45-51:46
Let's take one or two more questions.
Pastor Jeff:
51:46-51:48
We have... No, that was it.
Pastor Jeff:
51:48-51:49
Do you want to do the mic?
Pastor Jeff:
51:50-51:51
You know what?
Pastor Jeff:
51:51-51:52
I think we're about done.
Pastor Jeff:
51:53-51:56
Do we have any, like, one really, really urgent pressing question?
Pastor Jeff:
51:57-51:59
Absolutely, we cannot leave until it's asked.
Pastor Jeff:
52:01-52:03
If you have a question like that, we'll answer that one.
Pastor Jeff:
52:03-52:06
Darla does. Go ahead, say it from your seat.
Pastor Jeff:
52:07-52:10
Mark, she'll say it from her seat and you're going to repeat it into the mic so we have it on the recording.
Pastor Jeff:
52:12-52:22
So the question is, how do we as white people sort of respond to "Black Lives Matter", "All Lives Matter" and...
Pastor Jeff:
52:22-52:27
Black Lives Matter is a hard thing because it's a statement but it's also an organization.
Pastor Jeff:
52:27-52:30
And I would agree with one but not necessarily the other.
Pastor Jeff:
52:30-52:31
Tiffany, would you speak to that, please?
Tiffany Seitz:
52:32-52:46
Sure, I know that I've had it come up in conversation that people are really leery of saying the phrase Black Lives Matter because they fear that it might be associated with the movement that largely wants to defund the police, which is a whole other issue.
Tiffany Seitz:
52:47-52:52
So I know that there is a lot of taboo around saying Black Lives Matter.
Tiffany Seitz:
52:52-52:57
And I think that all of us agree in this room that all lives do matter.
Tiffany Seitz:
52:58-53:02
And right now, and for the past 400 years, I think it's been the black lives that have been hurting.
Tiffany Seitz:
53:03-53:05
And I don't think that it's bad to acknowledge that.
Tiffany Seitz:
53:06-53:06
You know what I mean?
Tiffany Seitz:
53:06-53:14
So I think taking the time to make sure that everybody's treated equally, I think that's really the most important thing.
Tiffany Seitz:
53:14-53:21
And you don't necessarily have to be associated with the movement in order to assure that people are treated equally around you.
Tiffany Seitz:
53:21-53:27
And I think that that perhaps is the most important thing that we can do is stand up to injustice when you see it.
Tiffany Seitz:
53:27-53:36
Because I think largely what this season has done for us is it has made us aware of the fact that there is indeed injustice that goes unrecognized every day.
Tiffany Seitz:
53:36-53:43
I know that these three murders that have happened and in counting that are still happening to this day have made us aware.
Tiffany Seitz:
53:43-53:46
And there are so many others like that that don't get media attention.
Tiffany Seitz:
53:47-54:01
So I think that us in our personal lives going about that and making sure that we as Christians can speak to the fact that we are all created equal.
Tiffany Seitz:
54:01-54:03
And I know that that's not what people wanna hear right now.
Tiffany Seitz:
54:03-54:18
I know that they wanna hear Black Lives Matter, and I know that that's something, a hashtag that really I've refrained from using because I do believe that all lives matter, but I do have the understanding as a black woman living through this season that black voices have been hurting for such a long time.
Tiffany Seitz:
54:19-54:45
to think that segregation, we think it's hundreds of years ago, when it's not hundreds of years ago. It's still within the last 50, 60 years that that was a reality. And to think that had I been alive during that season, I would not be able to be in this room with you right now. So to think those things are really, really jarring. But I understand that not everybody wants to hear all lives matter right now as much as we all believe that to be true.
Tiffany Seitz:
54:46-54:55
I think that going above and beyond to assure that we at the end of the day know that we're human and we all deserve that equality.
54:56-54:56
Well,
Pastor Jeff:
54:56-54:58
Tiffany, thank you so much for being our guest today.
Pastor Jeff:
54:59-54:59
It's my pleasure.
Tiffany Seitz:
55:00-55:01
Thank you for having me.
Pastor Jeff:
55:09-55:43
And I'm sure, as Dr. Andrews said, I'm sure this is only the beginning of conversations for a lot of people, but I think your insight really pointed us in the right direction in a lot of ways. So I appreciate you taking the time and joining us. If our worship team would come back up to the platform, I'm going to pray and we're going to close our time by worshipping the Lord together. Let's pray. Father in heaven, we thank you that you've made it so clear in your word that you take horrible things and you use them for glorious things.
Pastor Jeff:
55:45-55:46
We see it with your son.
Pastor Jeff:
55:47-55:51
His brutal execution was the way that you purchased our salvation.
Pastor Jeff:
55:52-56:00
And somehow, Father, we believe that You're going to use this day of racism and reaction to and violence.
Pastor Jeff:
56:00-56:03
We believe, Father, that You are going to use this.
Pastor Jeff:
56:04-56:08
And it might be hard for us to see now how You're going to use this, but we believe that You are.
Pastor Jeff:
56:09-56:24
Father, I pray for this church, that we would stand ready to represent Christ as we leave from here and go back to our homes, go back to our neighborhoods, go back to our workplaces, go back to wherever You have us.
Pastor Jeff:
56:25-56:30
Father, let us represent the love of Jesus Christ that is for all people.
Pastor Jeff:
56:31-56:36
Father, thank You for the work that I'm sure You started today, that You're going to carry through.
Pastor Jeff:
56:37-56:39
I pray in Jesus' name, Amen.
Small Group Questions (Whole Group):
Discuss any of the topics covered on Sunday! Consult the thorough notes I’m certain you took.
Breakout Questions:
Pray for our nation - and pray for our church to have opportunity to love people with the Gospel in the face of racial tension.