Living in the Wrath of God

Introduction:

  1. God Abandons a Nation That Abandons God.

    Read: Judges 10:13-14 | Hosea 4:17 | Matthew 15:12-14 | Acts 14:16

  2. Why Does God Abandon a Nation? (Romans 1:18-23)

    They clearly Know about God.

    But they clearly don't Want God.

  3. What Happens When God Abandons a Nation?

  4. 3 Progressive Steps a Nation Takes When God Abandons It.
    1. First the Heart goes: Sexual Immorality. (Romans 1:24-25)
    2. Then What is Natural goes: Dishonorable Passions. (Romans 1:26-27)
    3. Finally, the Mind goes: Debased Minds. (Romans 1:28-32)

    Psalm 81:11-16 - "But my people did not listen to my voice; Israel would not submit to me. So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts, to follow their own counsels. Oh, that my people would listen to me, that Israel would walk in my ways! I would soon subdue their enemies and turn my hand against their foes. Those who hate the LORD would cringe toward him, and their fate would last forever. But he would feed you with the finest of the wheat, and with honey from the rock I would satisfy you."

Sermon Notes (PDF): BLANK
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  • 00:00-00:04

    In God's Word today, we're going to be looking at some adult subject matter.

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    And as you know, if you've been coming here for any amount of time, I never plan to get any more explicit than the Word of God itself does.

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    But it does have some adult subjects here.

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    And if you would feel more comfortable for your kids to go to Harvest Kids, Mandy says bring them back.

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    And they'll be more than welcome back there.

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    Open up your Bibles with me please to Romans 1.

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    And I would ask if you would pray for me, and I will pray for you as we walk through an extremely heavy passage today.

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    This sermon was not on the preaching calendar.

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    My preaching calendar got a little adjusted when Miss Pennsylvania showed up last week.

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    So I had a rare week where I had to really seek the Lord on, "Father, what do you want these people to hear?

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    What do these people need to hear?" And the Lord showed me just one thing.

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    I certainly tried to explore other options, but the Lord brought me back to this.

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    So Romans 1.

    01:29-01:30

    We're going to get there in just a second.

    01:32-01:42

    But you know, before we look at the Word, you know, I find it interesting in our day that we're facing a global pandemic.

    01:43-01:45

    There's the big dust-up in Africa.

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    I don't know if you heard about that.

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    I was actually talking to our missionary Barnabas the other night, There have been huge storms come through and destroy some homes and do some damage to the children's home.

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    We have all these - and I personally have some friends that are going through some severe health issues right now.

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    I'm talking life and death things.

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    And in the face of all of this, it's encouraging to me that people are finally putting their priorities where they need to be.

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    You know what I'm talking about.

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    That finally, Elmer Fudd is not going to have a gun to hunt wabbits.

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    Did you see this?

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    Anybody else?

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    Show of hands.

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    Anybody else upset about this?

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    That was part of my childhood, OK?

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    And then they said, oh, by the way, PS, you're Sidney Sam, too.

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    And then I heard Paw Patrol is under attack.

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    You know, it's a show for toddlers about dogs.

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    They have the police dog.

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    What's his name?

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    Chase, okay, I know some people here are toddlers.

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    Some of you watch it.

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    Some of you watch it without your toddlers, and we love you too.

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    But I guess his name's Carl now.

    03:10-03:13

    But Paw Patrol is under attack, especially the police dog.

    03:14-03:16

    And I'm sure you've seen that Aunt Jemima was fired.

    03:18-03:21

    And that really bothered me, because I want you to think about something.

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    She was only fired because she was black.

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    True or false?

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    Well, I heard yesterday there's a rumor that they might not fire her.

    03:38-03:46

    However, they did take the Native American woman off of the Land O'Lakes butter package removed.

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    You know, this stuff is almost humorous.

    03:51-04:09

    In our day of real problems happening, and real people dying, and real racial violence, and real natural disasters, there's so much focus on cartoon characters and spokespeople for condiments.

    04:10-04:15

    And every day, when you turn on the news, it just gets crazier.

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    Cow's milk is now racist.

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    Did you see that?

    04:20-04:22

    This is something that's actually years old.

    04:22-04:31

    I'm not gonna dive into that, but I was on a Skype with some people from Johnny and Friends this past week, and they're headquartered in Columbus, Ohio.

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    And I had to ask them because there's this thing going on that they wanna rename the city of Columbus, Ohio.

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    Did you hear that?

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    Okay, do you know one of the top considerations for the new name?

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    Flavortown.

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    I'm not making that up.

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    Do you know why?

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    Because I guess once upon a time Guy Fieri called it Flavortown.

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    He also calls meatballs Flavortown, but I guess we're going to rename Columbus Flavortown.

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    And it's just, it's insanity.

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    And some of this stuff is almost funny, but I want to tell you some things that, I want to tell you some things today that aren't funny.

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    Maybe you've seen the videos online.

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    Maybe you've read some articles.

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    Maybe you've seen it on the news.

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    About a month ago, did you see in the nursing home in Detroit, a 20-year-old man viciously punching a senior citizen man face down on his bed, defenseless, picking his shots, just bellowing.

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    Did you see that?

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    I was sick.

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    That's somebody's grandfather.

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    That's somebody's dad that they put in that home to get the best care that he could.

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    Did you see that?

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    I saw a video a couple weeks ago of three men beating on a woman with a 2x4.

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    I saw a video last week of a pastor was restrained by a mob in the street while a homosexual man kissed him.

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    Did you see that?

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    I saw a video of a Macy's employee folding clothes, doing his job, sucker punched from the back, and brutally assaulted.

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    I just read yesterday that they finally, after a couple of weeks, brought the man into custody.

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    Have you seen it?

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    Riots. Statues torn down.

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    Shop owners beaten.

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    Stores looted.

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    Stores set on fire.

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    The police defunded.

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    And in Seattle, we have six blocks taken over.

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    What's it? Chaz? Chop?

    06:49-06:51

    Or what's it called this week? Anybody know?

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    And you come to church, and the preacher gets up and encourages you You need to look at things through a biblical lens, right?

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    You need to look at the world through God's eyes, through a biblical lens, and the question is how in the world do we interpret what's happening in our culture now?

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    But today I'm going to teach you something that many of you may have never heard before.

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    And that is this.

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    You're going to have to take good notes because unfortunately we had some technical difficulties, which as you know doesn't happen here too often.

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    part of being fallen people in a cursed world.

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    So take good notes.

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    But I want you to write this sentence down.

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    Are you ready?

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    Here it is.

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    "God abandons a nation that abandons God." God abandons a nation that abandons God.

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    That's letter A to that.

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    God abandons a nation that abandons God.

    07:56-07:59

    Look at Romans 1, look at verse 18.

    08:01-08:11

    It says, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men." Stop there.

    08:13-08:14

    We're talking about God's wrath.

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    When I say God's wrath, I say, "What do you think of when you think of God's wrath?" You think of, oh, the events of the book of Revelation, right?

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    Yes, that's true.

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    That's part of God's wrath.

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    What do you think of God's wrath?

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    You're like, "Well, that's hell, right?" Yes, God's wrath, that is hell.

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    But God's wrath is also abandonment.

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    And notice what the passage says.

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    It doesn't say the wrath of God is coming someday.

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    It says the wrath of God is revealed, meaning it is here and now when these things happen that we're going to see in the passage.

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    One of the aspects of God's wrath is abandonment.

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    It's when God says, "Hey, hey, hey, nation.

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    Do you want to sin?

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    Go ahead.

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    I'll let you go.

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    I'll leave you be.

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    You want sin?

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    You don't want me?

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    I'm out." That's what we see in this passage.

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    And church, listen to me.

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    That's what you see on the news.

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    It's so obvious.

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    You know, it's sort of like this.

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    When I was in high school, I had this biology class.

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    And it was a rowdy group of kids in this class.

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    I mean, not me.

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    I was like this shy, introvert wallflower.

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    But the other kids in the class, They were pretty rowdy, right?

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    And it was this rowdy class.

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    And our teacher would come in, Mr. Sedgwick, he would come in and he'd stand up at the podium or the lectern or whatever you call it there.

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    And he'd just leave.

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    And it was a two period class.

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    You're like, where did he go?

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    I don't know.

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    He was gone for two periods.

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    Now let me ask you, I told you this was a rowdy class and that's when he was in the room.

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    What do you think happened to the class when continually he was gone for an hour and a half?

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    What do you think happened?

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    Do you think, we all learn crocheting, right?

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    And we're like, oh, you know what, now that the teacher's gone, this is our chance to really impress him when he comes back.

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    So let's get out our biology textbooks and we'll study and be ready.

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    You think that's what we did?

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    It was party time!

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    We were dancing on the tables, and we were blasting music, and we were playing dodgeball.

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    We were going nuts doing everything that we could possibly want to do as a bunch of rowdy kids.

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    You see, without the authority being in the room to give any kind of restraint, when the authority left the room, we were like, it is time to do whatever the heck we want to do.

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    And that's what we're going to see here in Romans 1.

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    As a nation, are these rowdy kids where God's presence has dwelled?

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    And we're going to see here that like the teacher, God stepped away.

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    God abandons a nation that abandons God.

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    Before we look at it in Romans, I want you to understand, This is all through Scripture.

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    I'm going to share some verses with you here very quickly.

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    This is all through Scripture, and the reason I'm sharing this with you is I don't want you to think, "Well, Pastor, Jeff just kind of pulled this one thing and went with this really crazy idea I've never heard before." This is all through Scripture.

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    You can jot the reference down, check them later.

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    Judges 10, paraphrasing, Israel was like, "God, we've sinned!" And God said, "I have saved you from so many enemies in the past." Genesis 13 and 14, Judges 10.

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    God says, "Yet you have forsaken Me and served other gods, therefore I will save you no more.

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    Go and cry out to the gods whom you have chosen.

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    Let them save you in the time of your distress." It happened in the days of judges.

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    God's like, "You know what?

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    You abandon Me, I'm done.

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    Cry out to the rocks and the sticks that you're worshiping because you didn't want me, alright?

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    Hosea 4.17, here's another one.

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    Ephraim, part of Israel, really representing Israel, says, "Ephraim is joined to idols." Now you would think the next phrase would be like, "Call him back, make him repent, do what we've got to do to get rid of the idols." That's not what it says.

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    "Ephraim is joined to idols." Next line.

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    Leave him alone.

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    You don't want God? You want your idols?

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    God's like, "Alright, have it. Have it." You're like, "Well, surely not Jesus, right?" Jot this one down. Matthew 15, verses 12-14.

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    It says, "Then the disciples came and said to Jesus," because of some teaching that Jesus just made, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?" Therefore Jesus held a press conference where He profusely apologized for any insensitive thing that He may have said that offended the poor Pharisees.

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    And Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, I am sorry if I caused any offense, and I will step down from my position." No, no, no, no, that's not what it says.

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    Some of you are like, "I don't think it says that." You're like, "I know it doesn't say that." So anyways, it kind of cracks me up.

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    The disciples were like, "Jesus, they were offended, Jesus.

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    You offended them." Here's what Jesus really said.

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    He answered, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up.

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    Leave them alone. They're blind guides." Jesus is like, "Let them go." Not, "Let's chase after them. Let's try to convince them.

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    Watch this. Jesus is like, "Let him go.

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    On your way. Toodaloo. Done." This wrath of abandonment is exactly what Romans 1 is addressing.

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    Because you're going to see it three times here.

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    Verse 24, verse 26, verse 28, it says, "God gave them up." God gave them up.

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    God gave them up.

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    That's actually a courtroom term.

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    They used it when you handed a criminal over for punishment.

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    Sentence passed. Here He is. Take Him and punish Him.

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    That's the word used.

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    That God's like, "Done. Have it." And this is nothing isolated, what's happening in our day, or even in Jesus' day, or even in a day of judges.

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    This has been consistently throughout history.

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    This very thing has happened.

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    Acts 14.16 says, "In past generations, God allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways." They've rejected what they knew of God, so God abandoned them, and...

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    That is 2020 America.

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    So what follows is Paul telling us why God abandons a culture, and then he tells us the results of a God-abandoned culture.

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    So letter A, God abandons a nation that abandons God.

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    Letter B.

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    Just write the question down.

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    Why does God abandon a nation?

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    I'm going to show you why. Look at verse 18 again.

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    It says, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

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    For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

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    For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world and the things that have been made.

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    So they are without excuse.

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    For although they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and her foolish hearts were darkened.

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    Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

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    Why does God abandon a nation?

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    Here it is.

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    They clearly know about God, but they clearly don't want God.

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    They clearly know about God, but they clearly don't want God.

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    I'm going to break that down for you, because this is what the text says, okay?

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    Break it down. First of all, they clearly know about God.

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    See, the context here, obviously, they're not talking about a personal relationship with God.

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    I mean, you obviously picked that up.

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    Paul is saying, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, They know that there is a God. Everyone does.

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    Everyone does. Your neighbor who has never been to church, the guy sitting somewhere in Africa or Thailand or India or wherever that has never been to a church, even the people that have never seen a Bible, they know that there is a God.

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    How in the world would they know that?

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    Well, verse 20 says, "Because of God's power in nature." They're seen in creation.

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    You've seen God's hand at work, and you know a lot about God even aside from your Bibles.

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    Every baby that's born.

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    Every sunset you've ever watched.

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    Every trip to the ocean.

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    You're standing on the beach and you're just like, "You know what I'm talking about?

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    You know what that 'huh' is? You know what that is?" That's a recognition of the hand of God.

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    Every wedding you've been to, we see God's hand all over creation.

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    We see it inwardly too, actually.

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    Romans 2.15 says that God's law is written on our hearts.

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    We inherently know right and wrong.

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    Where did that come from?

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    It came from the One who established morality, and it points us to Him.

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    You're like, "Okay, I kind of see what you're saying, but is it really clear that there's a God just looking at creation?

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    Is it really, really clear? I mean, how clear is it?" Verse 19 says it's plain. It's shown.

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    Verse 20 says clearly perceived.

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    Verse 20 says they're without excuse.

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    Verse 21 says they knew.

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    So according to God, their issue is not ignorance.

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    And I'm not sure, as I read this passage, and I encourage you to read it and reread it, I'm not sure if it could be any more clear than it is.

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    He's making the point to say everyone knows that there is a God. Everyone!

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    They clearly know about God, but they clearly don't want God.

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    Did you see that in the text?

    20:10-20:11

    How does that happen?

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    Verse 18 says, "It's because we suppress the truth." We have the truth.

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    We just suppress it with our selfish sin.

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    When I hear "suppress" or "suppressor," do you know what I think of?

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    I think of a gun, right?

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    What does a gun suppressor do?

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    It's an attachment you put on the end.

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    What does the gun suppressor do?

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    It quiets it down, right?

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    And that's what we do with our sin, like, "Quiet down, God. Quiet down.

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    I don't want to hear you. I don't want to..." Quiet down.

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    We are suppressing God's truth.

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    In verse 21, he tells us that, "We don't want to honor Him as God.

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    That would be to acknowledge His authority.

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    And we don't want to thank Him.

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    And that would be to acknowledge His goodness.

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    Now we're getting to how the problem manifests, right?

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    We don't want to honor Him as God, right?

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    We have this little phrase we say around here.

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    He is God and I am not, right?

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    And you get that.

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    But most people do not get that.

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    Most people live under the "nobody tells me what to do" plan of life.

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    And he says they don't thank Him.

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    They don't give thanks.

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    They eat, right?

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    And they breathe, and they get to enjoy all the good things that life has to offer with no appreciation to the One who provided these things.

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    Why?

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    Because I know that I should live a life of gratitude towards this God who has given me everything.

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    And by giving Him gratitude, that would mean acknowledging the very God that I don't want interfering with my life.

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    Verse 22, it really boils down to, "Why do I need God, right?

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    I know everything.

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    Why do I need God?" Then you get to verse 23, and it's like, you know what, I think I'll just create my own God.

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    One that's a little easier for me to follow.

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    that does what I want Him to do.

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    So you have, okay, are you with me so far?

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    Because I can start over.

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    We clearly know about God, clearly.

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    And we clearly don't want God.

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    So my question to you now at this point is, what is God to do?

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    God's up in heaven just going, "Oh, bless your hearts.

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    Just please let me know how I can bless you.

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    I await your orders." No, the Bible actually tells us exactly what He does three times.

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    Again, He gives them up. He gives them up.

    23:05-23:08

    He gives them up. "Go ahead, do life your way.

    23:08-23:18

    Since you think you don't need Me, since you think you can manage things better than Me, I go for it. I'm out.

    23:21-23:23

    God abandons a nation that abandons God.

    23:24-23:25

    That's why.

    23:26-23:31

    They clearly know about God, but they clearly do not want God.

    23:34-23:37

    So the question is, what happens when God abandons a nation?

    23:39-23:42

    What happens when God says, "I'm out. I'm done.

    23:43-23:44

    I brought this down, letter C.

    23:46-23:53

    There's three progressive steps that a nation takes when God abandons it.

    23:53-23:55

    And that's what follows in the text, okay?

    23:57-23:59

    When God says, "I'm out. You don't want me.

    24:01-24:05

    Good luck." There's three steps that a nation goes through.

    24:07-24:10

    And understand that these steps don't happen overnight.

    24:10-24:12

    are things that build up over decades.

    24:13-24:13

    Right?

    24:16-24:19

    How long have we been hearing about this church?

    24:19-24:21

    They took prayer out of schools.

    24:23-24:34

    They're like, "We don't want God in our schools." And they take the Ten Commandments out of the public square because we don't want God's Word in a place where we see it.

    24:36-24:45

    This isn't anything new, that's been building and building, and you're going to see the sequence that He lays out.

    24:47-24:48

    It's a three-step thing.

    24:50-24:54

    Under letter C, number 1, write this down.

    24:55-24:56

    First, the heart goes.

    24:59-25:00

    First, the heart goes!

    25:01-25:02

    And that's sexual immorality.

    25:04-25:05

    Look at verses 24 and 25.

    25:06-25:07

    First, the heart goes.

    25:08-25:09

    Sexual immorality.

    25:12-25:29

    "Clearly know about God, clearly don't want God." Verse 24, "Therefore, God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves." That's sexual immorality.

    25:30-25:38

    It says, "because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator and is blessed forever.

    25:39-25:39

    Amen.

    25:40-25:41

    First, the heart goes. Right?

    25:43-25:45

    See, lusts dominate our hearts.

    25:47-25:51

    But when people decide, "You know what? I'm done wrestling with that.

    25:51-25:53

    I'm done struggling with that.

    25:53-26:01

    I'm done seeking any type of self-control that only God's Holy Spirit gives." What does it lead to?

    26:01-26:02

    Just unrestrained.

    26:02-26:03

    Unrestrained.

    26:04-26:06

    It's like I have been let off the leash.

    26:09-26:12

    And the lust in my heart turns into lust released in my body.

    26:13-26:14

    Do I have to sell anybody on this?

    26:15-26:16

    Really?

    26:17-26:24

    Do I need to convince anyone that's sitting here or watching this online or listening later or whatever?

    26:26-26:31

    Our culture has become dogs seeking dogs in heat.

    26:31-26:32

    That's what our culture has become.

    26:35-26:36

    There's an app for that.

    26:38-26:39

    Several, actually.

    26:39-26:45

    You can use your phone and you can find people to have a relationship with.

    26:45-26:48

    And I don't mean a dating relationship.

    26:48-26:51

    I mean a time of intimacy.

    26:54-26:55

    Just by finding them on your phone.

    26:59-27:01

    in a pornographic culture.

    27:02-27:05

    And a pornographic culture destroys marriages.

    27:05-27:06

    It abuses children.

    27:06-27:08

    It traffics little babies!

    27:10-27:14

    Meanwhile, God has this plan for marriage and sexuality.

    27:14-27:17

    And what does the abandoned culture do about that?

    27:17-27:18

    They laugh at that.

    27:18-27:20

    "Ha! Joke, dog! Man!

    27:21-27:22

    That's a big joke!

    27:22-27:24

    Really? Really?

    27:24-27:25

    Monogamy? Really?

    27:26-27:39

    That's what you're doing?" It's a joke. It's a joke. You see, first the heart goes. Sexual immorality.

    27:40-27:53

    Number two, then, jot this down, then what is natural goes. Then what is natural goes.

    27:54-27:55

    to dishonorable passions.

    27:58-27:59

    Look at verses 26 and 27.

    28:00-28:05

    It says, "For this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions.

    28:06-28:13

    For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature.

    28:14-28:28

    And the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another." Men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    28:29-28:33

    So the next step is perversion.

    28:34-28:44

    That sexual sin goes from typical man-to-woman type sin - sexual sin - to same-sex relationship.

    28:46-28:51

    And for all of those people who say, You know, the Bible never says homosexuality is wrong.

    28:54-28:57

    Once again, I would say I'm not sure how this passage could be any more clear.

    28:59-28:59

    Three times.

    29:00-29:06

    Three times right in these couple verses that we read, God says this isn't natural.

    29:07-29:10

    Like, Pastor Jeff, are you saying that homosexuality isn't natural?

    29:11-29:12

    God's saying that, okay?

    29:13-29:16

    And I can't believe that I even have to sell people on that.

    29:17-29:18

    It's not natural.

    29:19-29:21

    It's not how we were created.

    29:23-29:26

    But he says, you know, you get the due penalty for that, right?

    29:27-29:35

    And that's why you see, even in the homosexual community, there's already the reaping of some of the consequences.

    29:36-29:41

    Venereal disease, unfulfilled relationships, unsatisfied relationships.

    29:41-29:53

    I could go on and on about the testimonies and stories heard of people that have come out of that culture and just have talked about what a horrific life experience it really is.

    29:56-29:57

    But, here we are.

    29:59-30:01

    We're concluding Pride Month this week, by the way.

    30:04-30:07

    And I will say this, that's actually a very appropriate name.

    30:09-30:18

    For a culture that rejects God, and a culture that has been rejected by God, A culture that says, "Hey, hey, hey, hey, we are proud of ourselves.

    30:19-30:20

    Look what we have become.

    30:20-30:22

    Look how woke we are.

    30:22-30:28

    We are so proud of ourselves." Here we are.

    30:29-30:31

    First the heart goes, that's sexual immorality.

    30:31-30:33

    Then what is natural goes, that's dishonorable passions.

    30:34-30:39

    Thirdly, write this down, finally the mind goes.

    30:43-30:43

    Debased minds.

    30:46-30:47

    Finally, the mind goes.

    30:48-30:50

    Debased minds. Look at verse 28.

    30:51-31:06

    It says, "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done." You know what that word "debased" means?

    31:07-31:14

    "Debased" means you test something and you find that it's worthless, right?

    31:15-31:23

    Kind of like you have a flashlight that doesn't light and you check the bulb and you check the batteries and still don't light and you're like, my conclusion is this thing is worthless and you throw it away.

    31:24-31:27

    That's what is being used to describe people's minds.

    31:28-31:30

    Their minds are completely useless.

    31:31-31:35

    Do you realize nothing good is being produced from their heads?

    31:36-31:42

    You know, at the beginning of this message, I was talking about all this insane stuff that we're seeing in our culture.

    31:43-31:47

    Like, and I've had so many people ask me like, you know, what's going on?

    31:47-31:47

    What's wrong?

    31:47-31:49

    Can't people see this as crazy?

    31:49-31:51

    Why is the world so backwards?

    31:51-31:52

    Why is this bizarre world?

    31:52-31:54

    Why is this upside down world?

    31:54-31:56

    I've heard all these terms, people asking me.

    31:56-31:57

    And the answer is right here.

    32:00-32:02

    It's because God says, go ahead, do your thing.

    32:03-32:05

    And the result is a useless mind.

    32:07-32:10

    And when you have a useless mind, Guess what kind of stuff comes out?

    32:12-32:12

    Insanity!

    32:14-32:20

    Irrational, unreasonable garbage that you can go home and turn on your TV and watch it live 24/7.

    32:22-32:30

    By the way, this is the worst part because when the mind is gone, there's no turning back.

    32:33-32:38

    You get to the point that what is perverse is promoted.

    32:39-32:42

    And what is decent is denounced.

    32:44-33:00

    That's why he says in verse 28, "They did not see fit to acknowledge God." You know, there's a phrase I've heard thrown around today, in our day rather, of some things that are happening.

    33:00-33:04

    It's called "cancel culture." Have you heard that phrase, "cancel culture"?

    33:04-33:05

    How many of you have heard that?

    33:06-33:08

    Okay, looks like most of you have.

    33:11-33:16

    Actually, there's a word missing from that phrase.

    33:19-33:21

    Actually, a name is missing from that phrase.

    33:21-33:21

    It's Jesus.

    33:22-33:24

    We really live in the "cancel Jesus" culture.

    33:27-33:35

    Or if you're really into the two-word phrase, we can just call it the "abandoned culture." I still have to sell you on this.

    33:37-33:38

    Is this really America?

    33:39-33:40

    Is this what you see on TV?

    33:40-33:42

    We're going to look at the rest of these verses here, okay?

    33:43-33:52

    And as we look at these verses, I just want you to ask yourself, if you're still not sold on any of this, when you see this description, ask yourself, is this what I see on TV?

    33:52-33:54

    Is this what I see on social media?

    33:55-33:56

    Look at verse 29.

    33:57-34:07

    It says, "They were filled All manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice.

    34:10-34:15

    They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness.

    34:17-34:26

    They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, Insolent.

    34:27-34:28

    Haughty.

    34:29-34:30

    Boastful.

    34:32-34:34

    Inventors of evil.

    34:35-34:36

    Wrap your brain around that one.

    34:36-34:38

    Like, you know the ways that we usually sin?

    34:38-34:39

    Kind of getting old.

    34:40-34:43

    Let's make up some new perverse ways to sin.

    34:44-34:45

    That's what that means.

    34:45-34:46

    Inventors of evil.

    34:46-34:47

    Wow.

    34:48-34:49

    Disobedient to parents.

    34:51-34:51

    Foolish.

    34:52-34:53

    Faithless.

    34:54-34:57

    heartless, ruthless.

    35:01-35:11

    Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them, but give approval to those who practice them.

    35:14-35:22

    You know, I see that phrase "ruthless." A month ago, maybe you saw this story.

    35:24-35:31

    a 35-year-old mother of a 9-year-old nonverbal autistic kid.

    35:34-35:43

    Took him to a body of water, this community center, whatever, and threw him in. He couldn't swim. She threw him in.

    35:43-35:45

    And there were people that were watching.

    35:46-36:16

    And they were like, "Why isn't she trying to get him out of the water?" ran down and dragged this nine-year-old nonverbal autistic kid out of the water, saved his life. Soon after, the woman took her son to a lake at a golf course and and succeeded that time.

    36:17-36:18

    Killed her own child.

    36:23-36:29

    A kid who looks to the one person on earth that he should be able to trust, right?

    36:31-36:31

    His mother.

    36:33-36:36

    His last memory on this earth is her killing him.

    36:39-36:50

    So when the Bible says that a culture that's abandoned becomes ruthless, that's not hyperbole.

    36:52-36:54

    That's not sort of overstating the fact.

    36:57-36:58

    How ruthless?

    37:00-37:03

    About a mother murdering her special needs child.

    37:08-37:13

    and you saw the bottom of the barrel of sewage.

    37:15-37:18

    It's like you know when a culture has really been abandoned by God.

    37:18-37:19

    You know.

    37:20-37:21

    Did you see it?

    37:22-37:35

    Because not only are they doing these horrible, evil things, but give approval to those who practice them.

    37:37-37:45

    People are not only sinning, but they are also cheering on others who are sinning.

    37:47-37:51

    We talked about the unnatural aspect of the homosexual relationship.

    37:55-37:56

    What's the culture's response to it?

    37:57-38:13

    "Hey, let's have parades." You know what, I'm going to show my personal approval by changing my Facebook profile pic to a rainbow this month to show my approval.

    38:15-38:26

    I read last week an article about Disney and Sesame Street taking steps to really promote the LBQT, whatever the initials are.

    38:27-38:29

    Disney and Sesame Street.

    38:32-38:44

    I don't even understand what business they would have in doing that aside from God abandoned the nation and everybody's lost their minds.

    38:45-38:55

    So the people that are supposed to teach children how to count and learn their letters teaching toddlers about homosexual relationships, really?

    38:57-39:08

    And some of the cultural icons that have the biggest platforms, the athletes, the actors, the musicians, they're the people often that are promoting sin the loudest.

    39:10-39:18

    And I'll be honest with you, when it comes to the athletes, the actors, the musicians, whatever, I have low expectations for a lot of them.

    39:21-39:24

    God help the churches that are flying the rainbow flags right now.

    39:28-39:30

    These churches should be praying for repentance.

    39:31-39:36

    These churches should be seeking to point lost people to Jesus Christ for healing.

    39:37-39:38

    And what are the churches doing instead?

    39:40-39:44

    We applaud you and we stand with you and we stand for you.

    39:44-39:45

    God help us.

    39:49-39:51

    And you're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on Pastor Jeff.

    39:51-39:52

    We love those people?

    39:53-39:56

    Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

    39:56-40:02

    We should be loving these people and we should be intentionally looking for ways to love these people, absolutely.

    40:03-40:08

    But love does not equal, I applaud everything you do.

    40:10-40:10

    You know who gets that?

    40:11-40:12

    Parents, parents get that.

    40:13-40:14

    Do you love your kids?

    40:15-40:18

    Does loving your kids mean that you applaud and approve of every single thing they do and say?

    40:19-40:22

    No! Loving them means you point them to Christ!

    40:23-40:25

    You encourage them towards righteousness.

    40:28-40:32

    Loving does not mean I applaud what you do, even if God's Word condemns it.

    40:32-40:37

    I don't understand how that became the definition of love.

    40:37-40:39

    But for a lot of people, that's what it is.

    40:44-40:44

    There it is.

    40:46-40:49

    There's the description of what happens when a culture rejects God.

    40:53-40:56

    And He returns the favor.

    40:59-41:02

    He simply abandons the culture.

    41:02-41:05

    He simply abandons the nation that doesn't want Him.

    41:06-41:12

    And church, that is a most horrifying kind of wrath.

    41:15-41:17

    And we're immersed in it right now.

    41:19-41:20

    It's sexually perverse.

    41:21-41:22

    It's violent.

    41:23-41:24

    It's ruthless.

    41:27-41:28

    And it's proud.

    41:30-41:34

    So, what do we do about that?

    41:37-41:40

    I'm going to ask you to turn to another passage in your Bible.

    41:40-41:41

    I don't often do that.

    41:41-41:43

    We usually stay in a passage.

    41:43-41:47

    but I'm going to ask you to turn back to Psalm 81.

    41:49-41:54

    Psalm 81, verse 11.

    41:58-42:11

    You're like, "So what do we do? What do we do, Jeff?" Well, I would say, well, let's look at what God says to do. Right?

    42:14-42:15

    Let's look at these verses.

    42:16-42:18

    See if this sounds at all familiar.

    42:19-42:23

    Verse 11, "But my people did not listen to my voice.

    42:24-42:42

    Israel would not submit to me." 1st 12, "So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts, to follow their own counsels." See, there it is again, the sin of abandonment.

    42:42-42:43

    God's like, "Oh, you want to sin? Go ahead.

    42:44-42:52

    You don't want Me. Okay." But here it is, verse 13, listen.

    42:53-42:56

    Oh, that my people would listen to me.

    43:00-43:02

    That Israel would walk in my ways.

    43:04-43:08

    I would soon subdue their enemies and turn my hand against their foes.

    43:10-43:27

    Those who hate the Lord would cringe toward Him, and their fate would last forever, but He would feed you with the finest of the wheat, And with honey from the rock, I would satisfy you." So that was the introduction.

    43:28-43:29

    Here's the sermon.

    43:32-43:51

    God told Israel that when you're in a culture, a nation, that won't listen to God, won't submit to God, and God gives you over to your sin, and you end up following your own counsels, what does he tell his people to do?

    43:52-44:14

    He says, "Listen to me, and walk in my ways." In other words, church, for God's people, for us, He's calling us to hear the Word of God and respond to it.

    44:18-44:20

    Hear the Word of God and respond to it.

    44:20-44:23

    You know, you're not responsible for what other people are out there doing.

    44:27-44:29

    But you absolutely are responsible for what you're doing.

    44:32-44:34

    Are you seeking the Lord in your own walk right now?

    44:36-44:38

    It's easy to point the finger at other people's sin.

    44:39-44:40

    What about your sin?

    44:43-44:47

    Are you suppressing God's truth to try to excuse your sin?

    44:51-44:52

    You've got to seek the Lord in your own walk.

    44:54-44:57

    You've got to respond by loving people and sharing Christ with them.

    45:00-45:02

    You have a message right now.

    45:02-45:07

    You have the gospel message that will totally transform somebody's life.

    45:08-45:10

    Are you giving it to them?

    45:14-45:26

    And certainly, last and I would say most important, we need to pray on behalf of a people who are destroying themselves.

    45:27-45:32

    Not just in this life, but destroying themselves for eternity.

    45:34-45:37

    As our worship team comes forward, we're going to do that now.

    45:37-45:38

    I just ask you to bow your heads.

    45:42-45:46

    Father in heaven, we cry out to you now.

    45:50-45:58

    That Father, we are a nation that has been suppressing you for decades.

    46:01-46:07

    And all of this stuff that we're seeing happening right now, Father, is the reward that we get.

    46:11-46:13

    Father, we cry out for this nation.

    46:16-46:18

    We cry out for this church.

    46:20-46:39

    Father, we cry out for the families in their neighborhoods, in their workplaces, in their schools that are navigating through a world of depraved minds.

    46:40-46:42

    A world of debased minds.

    46:46-46:50

    Father, let us be a people that hear Your Word and respond.

    46:53-46:55

    And however You would see fit to use us, Father.

    47:00-47:00

    Open the door.

    47:01-47:01

    Show us.

    47:02-47:03

    Guide us.

    47:03-47:04

    Empower us.

    47:04-47:05

    Give us opportunity.

    47:06-47:07

    Give us boldness.

    47:07-47:14

    Give us much grace and truth to a nation that so desperately needs both.

    47:17-47:22

    In the name of our King, Jesus Christ, our Lord, our Savior, forever.

    47:23-47:23

    Amen.

Small Group Discussion
Read Romans 1:18-23

  1. What was your big “take-away” from this passage / message?

  2. Have you heard of this aspect of God’s wrath (abandonment) previously? If not, what is your initial response to this concept?

  3. Read Romans 1:19-20 again. How is it that everyone is “without excuse” when it comes to knowing there is a God? Explain how people know of God’s existence solely through creation.

  4. What is the connection between giving thanks and having faith (Romans 1:21)?

  5. Explain, briefly and in your own words, the progression that takes place when God “gives up” a nation (Romans 1:24-32). What can we do about it as a church?

Breakout
Pray for our nation, using Psalm 81:11-16 as your guide.

Questions from the Congregation - Part 13

Note: The time signatures [00:00] below indicate the start of a question if you'd like to skip to a particular one of interest in the audio file.

Q: How can we as Christians actively combat white privilege and racism? How are we at Harvest able to make a difference despite the lack of diversity in our church and immediate community?

A: See Acts 17:26 - And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place…

Ephesians 2:13-16 - But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Revelation 5:9-10 - And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”


Any question that was missed due to time constraints during the service Pastor Jeff will address the answer
on the blog.

Sermon Notes (PDF): BLANK
Hint: Highlight blanks above for answers!

  • Pastor Jeff:

    00:00-00:07

    Yeah, this is a first as Dr. Andrew said this is a first for us bonus Q&A day because we always get a lot of good questions

    Mark Ort:

    00:07-00:13

    Well, we every every time we have Q&A day I look at them ahead of time and I'm like man, these are really good

    Pastor Jeff:

    00:13-00:52

    and there was there was a question it came this time that Generated a lot of conversation and I know the men in our small group it generated some conversation with us and just hearing some feedback from people, this question in particular that we're going to be looking at today, it's very timely. And speaking with our elders about the question and where we are as a culture, the elders really felt like it would be a bad thing to try to squeeze this in with however many other questions we answered last week.

    Pastor Jeff:

    00:52-01:23

    You know, it just wouldn't be right. So we thought in light of everything that's happening today. Let's spend Let's let's spend a whole morning talking about this from a biblical gospel perspective. So here's the question Oh, by the way Tiffany is gracious enough. She's going to take questions at the end and you can brave huh, so So you can text your question or I will pass around the mic but you can text it to that number there and Mr. Wolski will get that.

    Pastor Jeff:

    01:25-01:28

    So ask away. Tiffany said don't be shy, right? You're not going to be offended.

    Pastor Jeff:

    01:28-01:32

    So that's why you're here, is to answer these questions.

    Pastor Jeff:

    01:32-01:35

    So let's start with the question. Can we get it up there?

    Pastor Jeff:

    01:35-01:40

    This is the question that we deliberately did not get to last week.

    Pastor Jeff:

    01:40-01:47

    How can we as Christians actively combat white privilege and racism?

    Pastor Jeff:

    01:48-01:56

    How are we at Harvest able to make a difference despite the lack of diversity in our church and immediate community?

    Pastor Jeff:

    01:56-02:01

    So, Harvest Bible Chapel, Bible is our middle name.

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:01-02:04

    So, let's start with the Bible's answer to racism, right?

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:06-02:10

    Racism, really biblically, it's two things.

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:11-02:16

    It's ignorance for one, and it's hateful for another.

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:17-02:19

    And I want to show you some passages here.

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:20-02:28

    Acts 17, this is Paul in Athens, addressing people that had all these idols, and they didn't know the one true God.

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:28-02:29

    They worshipped anything and everything.

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:30-02:32

    And Paul was telling them about the one true God.

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:32-02:33

    Look at what he said about the one true God.

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:33-02:57

    "And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined a lot of periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place." So when I say racism is ignorance, biblically as Christians, especially people that say we know the Word of God, you have to see that the Bible makes it clear that God made everyone from one man, really from one man and woman, Adam and Eve.

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:58-03:00

    So essentially, we're all related.

    Pastor Jeff:

    03:01-03:03

    And I don't even mean essentially, but literally.

    Pastor Jeff:

    03:03-03:10

    We are all related because we all came from the same physical parents, alright?

    Pastor Jeff:

    03:11-03:13

    So, Ephesians 2.

    Pastor Jeff:

    03:15-03:18

    Another passage. I'm going to go through this quickly here.

    Pastor Jeff:

    03:19-03:20

    Because you hear me every week.

    Pastor Jeff:

    03:20-04:03

    "But now in Christ Jesus, you who are once far off, have been brought near by the blood of Christ, for He Himself is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility." Now, in the immediate context of Ephesians 2, he's talking about Jews and Gentiles, but you obviously see the broader principle, that God's desire through Jesus Christ is to make all people one in the church.

    Pastor Jeff:

    04:03-04:21

    In the church, it doesn't matter what your ethnic background is, or your economic background. In the church we are all on equal footing because how's the old expression go? The ground is level with the cross, right? And that's how God designed it to be. So, Ephesians chapter 2 and one more verse.

    Pastor Jeff:

    04:21-04:33

    Revelation, two more verses, 5 verses 9 through 10. I love this. We went through Revelation here, was that last year? Okay. So you remember this well. Jeff, you don't even remember this.

    Pastor Jeff:

    04:34-04:39

    This is Revelation 5. John got to see behind the curtain in heaven.

    Pastor Jeff:

    04:40-05:01

    They sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people from God." Look at this. "From every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priesthood of our God, and they shall reign on the earth." So understand again, God's purpose in the Gospel is to bring people from...

    Pastor Jeff:

    05:01-05:05

    Do you see that? Every tribe, language, people, nation.

    Pastor Jeff:

    05:06-05:08

    You know, that's God's goal in Christ.

    Pastor Jeff:

    05:09-05:18

    So, racism biblically is ignorant, because you're ignorant of God's design, and you're ignorant of God's ultimate plan, but it's also hateful.

    Pastor Jeff:

    05:18-05:24

    We talked about that a couple of weeks ago in John 8, when Jesus was talking to religious leaders, and He said, "No, no, no.

    Pastor Jeff:

    05:26-05:32

    God is not your Father. Satan is your Father, because he's a murderer, and you're just as hateful as him, I'm paraphrasing.

    Pastor Jeff:

    05:33-05:35

    So, that's the biblical answer.

    Pastor Jeff:

    05:35-05:38

    Why are we dedicating a whole day to this?

    Pastor Jeff:

    05:38-05:44

    I just, you know, jotted some things down here, if you're wondering, like, I don't really see why we have a whole day dedicated to this question.

    Pastor Jeff:

    05:45-05:47

    Well, number one, the question was asked, all right?

    Pastor Jeff:

    05:47-05:50

    Somebody posed a question, and that leads to number two.

    Pastor Jeff:

    05:50-05:55

    It resulted in a lot of conversations happening as a result.

    Pastor Jeff:

    05:55-06:06

    But the reason this is happening is, where else are you going to go for a word on how to navigate through such a racially tense culture?

    Pastor Jeff:

    06:07-06:08

    Like, where are you going to go? CNN?

    Pastor Jeff:

    06:09-06:13

    You're going to look up some knucklehead friends from high school and see their opinion on Facebook?

    Pastor Jeff:

    06:14-06:26

    Like, "Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how..." No, the church should be the place that says, "Thus saith the Lord." And this is how we respond to racism in our culture.

    Pastor Jeff:

    06:28-06:30

    Real, perceived, whatever.

    Pastor Jeff:

    06:30-06:32

    This is how we respond.

    Pastor Jeff:

    06:33-06:35

    So, all that to say...

    Pastor Jeff:

    06:35-06:38

    And by the way, we usually set a timer, and the timer did not even start yet.

    Pastor Jeff:

    06:38-06:39

    This was all free.

    Pastor Jeff:

    06:41-06:51

    And you're like, "And I feel like I got what I paid for." So the question is, "Okay, Pastor Jeff, so why is Tiffany here?" I want to explain how this happened because I know how this looks.

    Pastor Jeff:

    06:52-07:14

    We're like, well we could address race with a couple of middle-aged white guys, but we're just going to find a random black person. That's not at all how this happened. Mark is so studious, all right? That's one of the things I love about him. And when this question came, he said, "I want to talk to a black Christian about this question." And he knew Tiffany because Tiffany is his daughter's dance instructor, right?

    Pastor Jeff:

    07:15-07:46

    So, he had this conversation with Tiffany, and Mark calls me up, he's like, "Dude, we're gonna see if Tiffany will come to the church "and share some of the things she shared with me." So then, was it last Monday, we talked on the phone, and I'm like, "Yeah, we gotta get her, "maybe it was two Mondays ago, "we gotta get her to church and share these things, "because you have a great perspective." So, I'm going to shut up now, and Tiffany, we would like you, please, before we get into some of these issues and questions, would you please just sort of take five minutes and introduce yourself?

    Pastor Jeff:

    07:46-07:53

    And I know you have an amazing story and it's tough to boil it down, but we wanna get to some of these racial issues.

    Pastor Jeff:

    07:53-08:00

    Can you give just a little bit of background, your testimony and introduce us to yourself?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:00-08:02

    Sure, well, hello everybody.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:02-08:04

    It's really nice to be with you this Sunday morning.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:05-08:11

    I'm like really refreshed to be back in church because this is the first time in probably about three months that I've woken up before 8 a.m.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:11-08:14

    And this is the first time in over three months that I've been in church.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:14-08:18

    So I am so, so, so excited to be here with you all this morning.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:19-08:21

    So thank you so much for having me.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:22-08:24

    Just a little bit about myself.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:24-08:29

    I like to tell people that I'm a lot more exciting in pictures, which is kind of the truth.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:29-08:31

    But I'm excited to be here with you guys live this morning.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:31-08:32

    But a little bit about me.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:32-08:34

    I'm from Pittsburgh, born and raised.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:34-08:39

    As a matter of fact, there's a little pierogi shop up the street that my family and I frequent for Pierogi Thursday.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:41-08:45

    But I was born and raised here, so my story is like-- it's not complicated.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:45-08:48

    It's just starts out differently than everybody else's.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:48-08:49

    But I am adopted.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:49-08:54

    I was adopted when I was 2 and 1/2, but I had been coming with my parents since I was an infant.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    08:55-09:01

    So at two weeks, I was born addicted to cocaine, and I was not expected to live beyond two weeks.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    09:01-09:08

    And doctors told me that if I did live beyond two weeks, then I was looking at a myriad of complications into my adult life.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    09:08-09:11

    And so they said that I wouldn't live to see my first birthday.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    09:12-09:14

    So almost 25 years later, here I am.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    09:14-09:14

    Hello.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    09:15-09:15

    Surprise.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    09:18-09:26

    But I share that because it's not anything that I did or my parents did, but it's really just like the hand of God in my life, which I love to share.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    09:27-09:28

    So that's really incredible.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    09:28-09:40

    And not only was I Lexi's freshman roommate or Andrew Roop's classmate when I was in high school or Livvy's dance teacher, nowadays I'm most notably known for being Miss Pennsylvania.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    09:41-09:44

    So if you Google me, that might be the first thing to come up.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    09:44-09:45

    So that's kind of cool.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    09:46-09:47

    That is really cool.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    09:47-09:47

    Yeah, it's cool.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    09:48-10:00

    But I've traveled over, let's see, 30,000-- 35,000 miles across the state of Pennsylvania talking about adoption and foster care, why it's important, and how it's affected my life, and how it can improve the lives of others.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:00-10:02

    So I've had the pleasure of doing that this year.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:02-10:06

    And I will be the first person in history to do this twice because of the pandemic, sadly.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:07-10:12

    So our national leadership has encouraged us to hold all state competitions in the year 2021.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:13-10:15

    So I will be Miss Pennsylvania for another year.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:15-10:16

    Wow.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:17-10:17

    Yeah.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:18-10:22

    You know, something that doesn't happen very often or ever.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:22-10:24

    I was totally confused.

    Pastor Jeff:

    10:24-10:25

    I thought it was like boxing.

    Pastor Jeff:

    10:26-10:28

    I thought somebody had to beat you to get your title.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:29-10:30

    Well, usually that is how it works.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:31-10:33

    But in this case, no.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:33-10:33

    No.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:34-10:34

    Sadly, no.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:35-10:37

    But, you know, so yeah, I've gotten to address that.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:37-10:38

    So you can say,

    Pastor Jeff:

    10:38-10:39

    like, yay pandemic, right?

    Pastor Jeff:

    10:40-10:40

    'Cause you get-- - I

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:40-10:41

    guess so, you know what?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:41-10:44

    There are good things to come out of even the worst seasons of life.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:44-10:48

    I think we've seen so much going on in the world, and I think it's really easy to focus on the negative.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:49-10:57

    And I know, like, when we were cooped up in our houses for like 45 days, that's really all we did, was we like, you know, watched the news, read USA Today, whatever news source we could get.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    10:58-11:00

    And that's really all that was coming at us.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    11:00-11:03

    But I think it's so important to analyze those things, that I get to do this for another year.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    11:03-11:05

    So I guess that's like a good thing for me.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    11:05-11:06

    That is a good thing.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    11:06-11:11

    But it gives me another year to kind of, you know, just to continue to make a difference across the state, which I'm really excited about.

    Mark Ort:

    11:12-11:19

    When I, not to interrupt you, but when I first heard that you were gonna do this a second year, my immediate thought was Esther in the Bible.

    Mark Ort:

    11:20-11:28

    It's like, you were born for such a time as this, and God is putting you there to influence and do the things that you do for another year.

    Mark Ort:

    11:28-11:29

    That's

    Pastor Jeff:

    11:29-11:29

    right.

    Mark Ort:

    11:29-11:30

    That's pretty

    Pastor Jeff:

    11:30-11:30

    cool.

    Pastor Jeff:

    11:30-11:31

    That is really cool.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    11:31-11:33

    Absolutely, I think that's perhaps the most exciting.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    11:33-11:53

    I know that when I was going into Miss America back in December, I did some reading in the book of Esther and I loved, there's a verse in there in chapter two that says, "Esther found favor with everybody who saw her." And so, that's just my prayer as I go about this year that I find favor with God and that's, He's gonna use me in ways that I wasn't able to be used this year.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    11:53-11:56

    So I'm excited for the victory lap here.

    Pastor Jeff:

    11:57-11:58

    That is fantastic.

    Pastor Jeff:

    11:58-12:04

    All right, Tiffany, so I guess since you're here, Answer this question for us.

    Pastor Jeff:

    12:04-12:05

    Can we get that question back up?

    Pastor Jeff:

    12:06-12:11

    How can we-- now there's actually two questions here, so let's just break it down here one at a time.

    Pastor Jeff:

    12:12-12:17

    How can we as Christians actively combat white privilege and racism?

    Pastor Jeff:

    12:17-12:18

    How would you respond to that?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    12:18-12:29

    I think, personally speaking, acknowledging the fact that racism indeed does exist, and it is a mindset that has sadly plagued our nation for a long time, like over 400 years.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    12:29-12:33

    So I mean, there's a historical context to racism that I think bears some understanding.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    12:33-12:42

    And I think once we have a grasp on that and an understanding of that, it's gonna help us be able to, how are we gonna combat that in our personal lives?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    12:42-12:45

    Because I think per person, it's gonna make a difference.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    12:45-12:47

    We're not all the same people sitting in this room.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    12:47-12:50

    We don't have the same way of going about things.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    12:50-13:00

    But I think that we, it really, it deserves some time to understand and how we in our personal lives can go about how to fix that.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    13:00-13:08

    So, again, like I say, I've said this to so many people who have asked me a similar question or a question such as this, you cannot cure ignorance in the masses.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    13:09-13:16

    And I think as we do a heart check and as we look on the inside, or what are things that I can change and how can I combat this when I see it?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    13:16-13:22

    I think first of all, acknowledging the fact that it is a relevant thing to talk about, it is something that still exists.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    13:22-13:27

    But as we handle that in our day-to-day lives, as we see it, it's gonna look different from person to person.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    13:27-13:34

    So I think doing your own research and, you know, just getting with God and saying, what can I do, I think is the first step to that.

    Pastor Jeff:

    13:35-13:38

    It's funny, you said something that actually had in my notes here.

    Pastor Jeff:

    13:39-13:40

    Everybody comes from different contexts, right?

    Pastor Jeff:

    13:41-13:43

    We all have different backgrounds.

    Pastor Jeff:

    13:43-13:49

    Some of us maybe were raised in a home where there was, you know, we saw racism in our parents and maybe not.

    Pastor Jeff:

    13:51-13:59

    But one of the things that I wanted to ask you was what about the person that says, I don't really see racism as an issue?

    Pastor Jeff:

    14:00-14:14

    Because you said, we've been battling it for 400 years, but I think there are a lot of people, and I shared this with you on the phone, I would be more in that camp because of some of my background, some of the people that I associated with and toured with and traveled with.

    Pastor Jeff:

    14:16-14:19

    I didn't see racism as being an issue.

    Pastor Jeff:

    14:19-14:22

    And like I shared with you, I would lean more towards that way.

    Pastor Jeff:

    14:23-14:28

    And I made note of this, what was this, couple summers ago, Aaron, we were in Kennywood.

    Pastor Jeff:

    14:28-14:38

    We noticed there were so many blended, I don't know the right term, I don't wanna say the wrong thing, but we saw a lot of black women, white men.

    Pastor Jeff:

    14:38-14:44

    We saw, in line behind us, there was a white couple that had adopted a whole bunch of black children.

    Pastor Jeff:

    14:45-14:47

    And we saw so much of that at Kennywood.

    Pastor Jeff:

    14:48-14:56

    I don't know if I was looking for it that day, but I just remember my wife and I commenting, It's just really refreshing because you have people who are like, people are so racist.

    Pastor Jeff:

    14:56-15:01

    I'm like, you couldn't come to Kennywood today and make that case because it just seemed like that was everywhere.

    Pastor Jeff:

    15:02-15:14

    All that to say, Tiffany, you know, I'm sure there are some of us like, how I would lean to say, I don't really see racism as the issue that some people make it out to be.

    Pastor Jeff:

    15:15-15:16

    How would you respond to that?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    15:17-15:21

    I think for me, my perspective on this is a little bit different because my parents are white.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    15:22-15:25

    So for me, I'm seeing it like a little bit on both sides.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    15:25-15:27

    So, you know, I have another black brother.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    15:27-15:29

    So I have three brothers.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    15:29-15:30

    One is black, one is white.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    15:30-15:35

    And then I have another one, he passed away from cancer when I was about seven years old, but he was also white.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    15:36-15:45

    So I think for me in the context, I realized that it exists a little bit more than maybe you, just because I am a black person in a white family.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    15:45-15:59

    So for me to, you know, I know that like when I was growing up and even still to this day, like when my mom and I go out places, People will look at us funny and they will automatically assume that we're not related, but it's really funny when I call her mom and people are like, "What?"

    Tiffany Seitz:

    16:00-16:01

    [laughter]

    Tiffany Seitz:

    16:01-16:03

    But I think it's...

    Tiffany Seitz:

    16:04-16:07

    Sometimes racism isn't going to be the most apparent thing that you see.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    16:07-16:15

    And even for me as a black woman living through this whole thing, and even before this, it really wasn't apparent to me. It's just little teeny tiny things.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    16:16-16:26

    Sometimes I will get followed around retail stores, and people look at me pockets and mainly that's just because I'm always cold. I just, you know, I just...

    Tiffany Seitz:

    16:26-16:27

    Do you think maybe they follow

    Pastor Jeff:

    16:27-16:28

    you because they want an autograph?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    16:30-16:49

    I wish that that was the reason. Maybe, maybe, although I did go into a Panera Bread once and somebody knew who I was. It was like a group of teenage boys that were preparing my food and they were like, "Are you Miss Pennsylvania?" and I was like, "Yes, how did you know that?" and they were like, "You were on the 11 o'clock news." I was like, "Well nice of you to tell me because nobody else did."

    Pastor Jeff:

    16:50-16:52

    Now, does being Miss Pennsylvania get you free Panera?

    Pastor Jeff:

    16:54-16:54

    No.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    16:54-16:56

    It's gotten me like a free slushie.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    16:57-17:01

    And I think so far that's it. A free slushie? Yes. That's it.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    17:02-17:06

    Oh man. Yeah, it's not like pass and go, collect $200. I really wish that's what it got me.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    17:06-17:29

    But sadly that's not the case. But you know, even in a position of status, there are still people, like I know several people after I won Miss Pennsylvania had told me like, "Oh, they only picked you because you were black." You know, and it's things like that and things that come up in conversation like that, that, you know, it kind of speaks to the fact that like those mindsets exist in people that might not think that they have them, but it comes out in remarks as

    Pastor Jeff:

    17:29-17:30

    such, you know.

    Pastor Jeff:

    17:30-17:35

    Right, and how do you respond to that? Somebody says, "Hey, they only picked you because you're black." How do you respond to that?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    17:35-17:46

    I mean, that's something that I've gotten like so many times, not even from Miss Pennsylvania, but I did have one person tell me when I was in college that I was the token black person that they put on all the marketing because the school didn't have enough diversity.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    17:46-18:12

    So, you know, I think it's just like I'm a human just as everybody else and at the end of the day color is only Skin-deep and that doesn't define who I am. It's not indicative of my character Right, and so, you know, I'm just like well, you know, you could think that way But like that's that's not the way it is and and you know it's it's kind of a hard thing to respond to because you're not gonna get somebody to understand in that instant like How that felt or like, you know what that meant?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    18:13-18:42

    But you know, it's just letting them know that like at the end of the day regardless of whether I look like you or not I'm still a human and They might have put me on the college marketing because maybe they liked my pink shirt Not because I was like the only black one they could find, you know So I think it's it's important in dressing and addressing things like that because people might not realize how that sounds but you know We're all human and skin color does not dictate our worth and our value So, you know just reminding people of that any chance you get

    Pastor Jeff:

    18:42-18:47

    Jesus Christ determines our worth and our value, right? So Amen

    Mark Ort:

    18:48-19:10

    part of that question Tiffany it talks about white privilege in that and When I got the question, I'm looking at just sent me the email and I'm looking at on my phone And I just I like really had to lean back and take a deep breath Because for the first time I heard the word or the phrase a bunch of times, but I thought to myself What exactly is white privilege?

    Mark Ort:

    19:11-19:18

    So I that's where I started to study a little bit on the internet like what is it? Where did it come from the term?

    Mark Ort:

    19:19-19:22

    Why do we use it things like that when you see that?

    Mark Ort:

    19:23-19:26

    term white privilege What goes through your mind?

    Mark Ort:

    19:28-19:29

    Is it a thing

    19:29-19:30

    I?

    19:30-19:31

    Mean you

    Tiffany Seitz:

    19:31-20:30

    know that terminology to me is is also fairly new I think you know as we've been looking at and watching the things going on in the world It seems at times that it's information overload even for me there's a lot of terminology that I'm seeing that is brand new to me that I've never even heard before and White privilege is one of those and I remember having a discussion in amongst my Miss America class where you know Somebody said to somebody else it was like some sort of an argument that was going on and they said to this this white girl they said your privilege is showing and I'm like What does that even mean? Like, you know, it's nothing that I've ever heard before. So for me, it's it's navigating new water But you know, I think sometimes The playing field hasn't always been even for black people and I think you know One example that I can use is a job resume and some in some of the research that I've done on this It says that you know You're more likely to get an interview from a job resume that has a white sounding name and I can use me for instance So my name hasn't always been Tiffany Sites.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    20:31-20:36

    When I was born, my given name was Davere Lynn Witherspoon, no relation to Reese.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    20:37-20:48

    And so, you look at a resume with Davere Witherspoon on it and you look at a resume with Tiffany Sites on it and one of those is more white sounding than the other.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    20:48-20:55

    And apparently, the more white sounding ones are the ones that get the most, that are more likely to be called back for an interview.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    20:55-21:04

    So I think that even in instances like those many, I think that like that in and of itself might be a form of privilege.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    21:05-21:09

    But again, this is something, the idea of white privilege is something that I'm also educating myself on.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    21:10-21:18

    But I think it bears acknowledgement to the fact that like, we can look around the room, we can look at like the last 400 years, we can look at the history.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    21:18-21:21

    I mean, segregation is not that far away from us.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    21:21-21:24

    And we can see that the playing field hasn't always been even for black people.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    21:24-21:29

    So, I think that in that respect, maybe that is what white privilege means.

    Pastor Jeff:

    21:29-21:37

    Have you had people reel accusations against you, saying the only reason you've gotten your opportunities is because you're basically the beneficiary of white privilege, right?

    Pastor Jeff:

    21:38-21:38

    White parents?

    Pastor Jeff:

    21:38-21:38

    Sure.

    Pastor Jeff:

    21:39-21:42

    I mean, have you had people, you know, sort of bring that accusation to you?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    21:43-22:27

    Yeah, I mean, I've had a lot of people say that, like, you know, my senior year at Grove City College was paid for, and I had one of those scholarships was a minority scholarship, but the scholarship that actually paid for my senior year to do with a minority. It was an entrepreneurship endowment, which was my major. But you know, I had several people say to me when I went told them that, and I didn't tell many people, but they were like, "Well, you know, you get this favor because you're a minority." And I'm like, "Well, no. Maybe it's just because somebody likes me. I don't know. Maybe I happen to rub elbows with the right people." You know? But yeah, you know, those are our things that I've heard. But again, And maybe people do see that as a benefit of white privilege and not something that I'm receiving.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    22:28-22:28

    But you know.

    Pastor Jeff:

    22:29-22:33

    How much of this recent-- we didn't get to this other question yet.

    Pastor Jeff:

    22:33-22:34

    I want to get to that in a second.

    Pastor Jeff:

    22:35-22:38

    I want to make sure to ask you this question, Tiffany.

    Pastor Jeff:

    22:39-23:28

    This recent surge and the result of the George Floyd death and the Brooks man in Atlanta, and the reaction things. How much of this recent surge and some of the destruction and rioting and things like that, how much of that do you think might be politically motivated? Or maybe as a result of, this is just an opinion that I hold, I think a lot of it is people have been locked down with COVID for three months and a lot of people that have no interest in race issues at all are like, "Woohoo, we can I hate to say that, but I don't think everybody out there protesting and rioting gives a rip about race.

    Pastor Jeff:

    23:28-23:30

    I think there's a lot of people that...

    Pastor Jeff:

    23:30-23:31

    How would you respond to that?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    23:32-23:32

    Absolutely.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    23:32-23:38

    I think for me, watching the news and watching the things that are going on in the world, it's so disheartening to me.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    23:39-23:49

    One of the things and one of the thoughts I shared on this issue was the reaction after George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery, which are three of which we've seen in a very short time.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    23:50-23:56

    I'm not one to think that the destruction of property is going to fix the issue of racism.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    23:56-24:01

    It's only going to confirm stereotypes that people already have about black people.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    24:02-24:09

    And I think that that's perhaps the most disappointing thing to see is that you're not accomplishing things by destruction.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    24:10-24:19

    I think that we need to destroy the idea of racism and that's great, but it's not coming in like tying a rope around a statue and pulling it down on yourself and other people around you.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    24:21-24:41

    So I think for that type of thing, I think we really need to look inside of our hearts and do a heart check within ourselves and say, "How can I combat this in a way that Jesus would? How would Jesus approach this?" I think that's the really important question that we as Christians need to be asking ourselves, and I've been asking myself that as well.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    24:41-25:02

    Because I think, even for me, it's opened my eyes to the injustice, not just with black people, but just injustices in general. How are we going to stand up to those after seeing these things? We're living history right now. It's a chapter out of a history book. It's one that I would love to be done with. But again, if God brings us to it, he will bring us through it.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    25:03-25:23

    There's something to be learned from this season, whether we enjoy going through it or not, but I think it's a big learning lesson for us. And it's been an eye-opener for us as well. How are we going to stand up to injustice, not just racial injustice, but all types of injustice, because there's more than just racial injustice that exists in this country.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    25:23-25:30

    So I think we need to be aware of it all, and we need to combat it all, because that's how we're going to create a better world to live in.

    Mark Ort:

    25:31-25:39

    Tiffany, I had a question on my notes here, and specifically because you're my daughter's dance instructor.

    Pastor Jeff:

    25:40-25:41

    Are you going to ask her to dance?

    Pastor Jeff:

    25:42-25:42

    No, don't do that.

    25:42-25:43

    (laughing)

    Mark Ort:

    25:43-25:44

    One up here.

    Pastor Jeff:

    25:44-25:44

    Not stretched.

    Mark Ort:

    25:46-25:56

    It made me wonder, like when I would take her to dance class and drop her off, some of those times I would sit in those chairs on the side you know, and I would watch.

    Mark Ort:

    25:57-26:09

    And I was very impressed with your dance acumen, or I don't know if that's the right word or whatever, but you're very, you were really, really talented in teaching the kids.

    Mark Ort:

    26:10-26:18

    And you showed this firmness, but yet this love for the kids, which made me really happy, especially for my daughter.

    Mark Ort:

    26:19-26:21

    But that leads me to my question.

    Mark Ort:

    26:22-26:28

    Do you see racism among the younger generation?

    Mark Ort:

    26:29-26:35

    Or do you see it mostly from people that are my age or in the older school of thought?

    Mark Ort:

    26:36-26:42

    Do you see progress being made with the younger generation, I guess is what I'm trying to ask.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    26:42-26:42

    Sure.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    26:42-26:43

    That's actually a really interesting question.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    26:44-26:46

    And I had this discussion with my mom.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    26:46-26:50

    We have quite a few people that we babysit and we've babysat them since they've been born.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    26:51-26:56

    And it's really caused us to feel that racism is definitely something that is taught.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    26:57-27:00

    And for older people, that goes back generations and generations.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    27:01-27:05

    I know that my mom has shared stories with me about the reaction of her family adopting me.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    27:06-27:14

    And it was like, "Oh, she's so dark." Or, "Take her back where she came from." Those are things that we had heard.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    27:16-27:22

    But again, we're not looking at this baby seeing, "Oh, she's black." We're looking at a baby seeing a baby.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    27:22-27:23

    You know what I mean?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    27:23-27:24

    So I think that that's like...

    Tiffany Seitz:

    27:24-27:29

    But again, that's generations of what was taught to you to think about black people over history.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    27:29-27:34

    But what I've noticed, and even my dance teaching, I teach little kids on Tuesdays.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    27:34-27:36

    They're so cute, but Libby's age is cute too.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    27:38-27:39

    For different reasons.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    27:40-27:48

    But, you know, I realize that people, like kids don't notice a color difference until like around the, between the ages of seven and nine.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    27:48-27:53

    So when kids run into dance class, they're not looking like, "Oh, my dance teacher's black." They're not looking at that.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    27:54-28:01

    You know, they're looking at like, "Oh, she's my dance teacher." You know, and I think that like the older they get, the more that they realize like we look different.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:01-28:04

    And that's totally fine to acknowledge the fact that we look different.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:04-28:08

    I mean, I remember having a little kid that we babysit.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:08-28:10

    His name is Lucas, sweetest person ever.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:10-28:11

    And he's like 11 now.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:11-28:14

    But I remember a few years back, we were in the kitchen, and he asked my mom.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:14-28:16

    He's like, mom-- or he said, Nana.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:16-28:16

    He calls her Nana.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:16-28:18

    He's like, Nana, why is Tiffany a different color?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:19-28:22

    And then my mom was like, well, that's the way that God made her.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:22-28:27

    And of course, I'm like, well, I was the piece of toast that stayed in the toaster too long.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:28-28:29

    That was my answer.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:29-28:33

    But my mom always comes in clutch with the loving educational answers.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:33-28:35

    And there's me and my snark.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:36-28:42

    But again, kids don't realize it until a certain age.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:42-28:44

    And they don't care regardless.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:45-28:52

    And I think that that's almost the attitude that we need to adopt, that we shouldn't look at somebody's race and automatically assume that they're lesser than.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:52-28:56

    We can acknowledge the fact that they're different, and we can celebrate the fact that they're different.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    28:57-29:11

    Because I think that that, in and of itself, Demonstrates God's handiwork that we don't all look the same. He does have some air of originality He might have spent more time working on you than he did on me, but you know regardless We're still he'll work.

    Pastor Jeff:

    29:11-29:17

    He's still working on me. Trust me. He's got a lot of work to do with me He's gracious to do

    Tiffany Seitz:

    29:17-29:48

    absolutely and I think that just like it shows his craftsmanship and the fact that he has made everybody so different And so unique and I think that that's something that we can celebrate But when we look at it, it's not that we're gonna like assume stereotypes And we're gonna assume that this person is lesser than because of the color of their skin And I think that history has kind of taught us to do that in some respect and mindset has taught us to do that but I really think that that's a mindset that we need to work on moving away from and Celebrating our differences in a way that glorifies God,

    Pastor Jeff:

    29:48-29:59

    right? You know I had a Quote on here. I was gonna ask you to respond to you that you sort of kind of just did, but you know, you hear people say, "I don't see color." How do you respond to that?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    30:01-30:05

    I mean, almost for me, that's like, that is usually the way I respond.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    30:05-30:09

    I mean, I've grown up in like predominantly white areas and I work in a predominantly white area.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    30:10-30:20

    So for me, I look at people and I'm like, "Eh, you look different, it's no big deal." You know, and for people that like don't see color, like that's fine.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    30:21-30:23

    But if you do, that's great too.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    30:24-30:24

    You know what I mean?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    30:24-30:30

    I think it's just, like I said, we can acknowledge the fact that we indeed look different, and I think that that's good.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    30:30-30:38

    I think it celebrates the fact that God is good and that he's an amazing creator and it shows his handiwork and his hard work on us.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    30:38-30:41

    So I think that we can see color.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    30:41-30:42

    It's not a bad thing.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    30:42-30:56

    And what I would hate to happen is after this ongoing discussion kind of comes to a lull is the fact that we're taboo about saying, oh, often people tell me, you have such beautiful skin, or your skin is so radiant, or this and that.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    30:56-30:58

    And I'm like, well, you have beautiful skin, too.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    30:58-31:00

    Do you not see this zit right here?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    31:00-31:01

    You know what I mean?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    31:01-31:02

    It's things like that.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    31:02-31:04

    But it's OK to celebrate the differences.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    31:04-31:06

    And it's a good thing to celebrate those.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    31:06-31:11

    And I don't want people to feel like it's offensive to say, wow, you're so beautiful.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    31:11-31:12

    Your skin is so beautiful.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    31:12-31:13

    Like, it's not.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    31:13-31:14

    Like, it's a celebration of God's creation.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    31:14-31:18

    And I think that that's a really, really good thing to do.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    31:18-31:24

    And it's a good thing to make a habit of, but where it becomes a problem is when we look at somebody and we just assume that they're a certain stereotype.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    31:24-31:25

    You know what I mean?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    31:25-31:37

    I'm sure there have been in the research that I've done and even in people's reactions, like I've had kids, like little teeny tiny, like under 10 year olds that are blaming China for the coronavirus, you know?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    31:37-31:41

    And they look at Chinese Americans and they're like, you're responsible for COVID-19.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    31:41-31:50

    And you know, like that's not something that we wanna do, like regardless of color or nationality, like we can celebrate those differences at the end of the day we're all children of God and that's what we need to focus on.

    Pastor Jeff:

    31:52-32:15

    Let's look at the second part of that question. How are we at Harvest able to make a difference despite the lack of diversity in our church and immediate community? And I gotta say, before you answer this, this question kind of stung me because I had another Harvest pastor years ago sharply rebuke me because we didn't have more black people in our church.

    Pastor Jeff:

    32:15-32:21

    And my response was like, "We don't exclude anybody, right?

    Pastor Jeff:

    32:21-32:57

    We don't intentionally try to keep people away." But I've got to tell you, Tiffany, when I look at this question, and as pastor of this church, and I think about our demographic, and the makeup of our church, and I think about what the Scripture says about every tribe and nation and skin color and everything else around the throne of Christ, I have to ask myself, is there something that we're doing as a church culture that would make a black person, or an Asian person, or a Latino person, or any person, is there something that we're doing as a church culture that would make people feel uncomfortable?

    Pastor Jeff:

    32:58-33:18

    And that's why this question, like I said, it kind of hit me in a place where I was like, "Yeah, you know, where is the diversity, and are we doing something to prevent it?" And this question is proactively asking how are we able to actually make a difference despite where we are diversity-wise.

    Pastor Jeff:

    33:18-33:19

    Would you please speak to that?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    33:20-33:20

    Yeah.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    33:20-33:25

    You know, I think, like you said, it largely has to do with the demographic of this area.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    33:26-33:30

    There might not be a whole lot of black people around the Wexford area, and that is okay.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    33:30-33:35

    And I don't think that it's anything in particular that you're doing as a church that would make them feel unwelcome.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    33:36-33:45

    But I think maybe sometimes black people might feel a little bit of comfort in gravitating towards where there would be more diversity.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    33:46-33:49

    And so if there isn't more diversity here, they might not come.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    33:49-33:52

    But I don't think it's anything that you're doing.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    33:52-33:57

    I just think that it's a comfort zone for some people to be around people who look like them.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    33:58-34:00

    And I think that we can all speak to that to some extent.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    34:00-34:05

    But I don't think it's anything that your church is doing wrong or exclusionary to them.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    34:05-34:05

    Can you

    Pastor Jeff:

    34:05-34:07

    call this pastor that rebuked me and tell him that?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    34:08-34:09

    Yes,

    Pastor Jeff:

    34:09-34:09

    I would love

    Tiffany Seitz:

    34:09-34:10

    to have a conversation.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    34:11-34:11

    No, I'd

    Pastor Jeff:

    34:11-34:12

    appreciate it.

    Pastor Jeff:

    34:12-34:13

    I'll give you his number after service.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    34:13-34:13

    Hey, sounds good.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    34:14-34:14

    Yes.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    34:15-34:17

    We'll do a Zoom call because apparently those are popular these days.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    34:19-34:23

    Yes, all of my masters and doctorate and like Zoom by the end of this pandemic season.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    34:23-34:32

    But I think it's just, it really largely has to do with the fact that the demographic might not call for it and that's totally fine.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    34:32-34:36

    and people might gravitate towards this church because they really like it.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    34:36-34:41

    Or they might want more diversity in a church, but you can't control that because of the area that you live in.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    34:41-34:44

    You know what I mean? So there's nothing that you should be at fault for.

    Pastor Jeff:

    34:44-34:51

    And I feel like it can sort of make evangelism disingenuous.

    Pastor Jeff:

    34:51-34:55

    If I'm like, "Hey, you're black. I want you to come to my church." You know what I mean? Is that my motivation?

    Pastor Jeff:

    34:56-34:59

    To share the love of Christ with you because of your ethnic background?

    Pastor Jeff:

    34:59-35:05

    My motivation should be, you know, God commanded us to preach the gospel to all creatures, right?

    Pastor Jeff:

    35:05-35:07

    So that should motivate me.

    Pastor Jeff:

    35:07-35:16

    And I feel like if we're just trying to target people for certain reasons, I think maybe our motivation is in question.

    Pastor Jeff:

    35:17-35:21

    You know, what I share with this person, regardless of their skin color, right?

    Pastor Jeff:

    35:21-35:36

    So what can we as a church do, because we're seeing what's going on, We're watching the news, we're seeing the rioting, we're hearing of the protesting just down the road.

    Pastor Jeff:

    35:38-35:39

    What can we as a church do about it?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    35:41-35:46

    Yeah, you know, I had a conversation about this either last week or a couple weeks ago.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    35:46-36:07

    I think that when we look at the news and we see what's going on and we're looking at social media especially, I know that that's what I'm looking at a whole lot of the time, and I'm just seeing these exhaustive checklists for how we can be better people and better allies and all this stuff that's, again, terminology that is really relatively new to me as well.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    36:08-36:15

    And I don't think that there's like, there's not really like a right blanket answer that I can give to this question.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    36:15-36:19

    I really think that the issue of racism, and you know, there are people that disagree.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    36:19-36:25

    I know that this has been a discussion amongst my Miss America class because we only have eight black women in it.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    36:25-36:33

    So it's been a discussion amongst our class and there are several of the girls that believe that racism is not a hard issue.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    36:34-36:35

    And I think it is a hard issue.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    36:35-36:36

    It absolutely is a hard issue.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    36:36-36:37

    Very much is a hard issue.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    36:38-36:45

    So when we're addressing the topic of what can we as individuals do to fix this, be introspective.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    36:46-36:52

    I watched a really impactful video on Facebook one day and it was a white professor addressing white college students.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    36:53-37:12

    And she simply said, "Stand up if you would like "to be treated as a black person in the United States." And there was silence and nobody stood up because nobody wants to be treated differently because at the end of the day, I think it forced them to realize, and even me as well, that we're all human beings.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    37:13-37:19

    And that the color of our skin is not indicative of the quality of our character or the kind of individual that we are.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    37:20-37:25

    So when posed the question, and this is a question that I've gotten from so many people, is like, what can we do?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    37:25-37:26

    What can we do?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    37:26-37:27

    What can we do?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    37:27-37:28

    Be introspective.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    37:29-37:40

    Check your own heart and get rid of those things that might cause you to see somebody as less than a creation that God has made and that God glorifies in and revels in every single day.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    37:41-37:44

    Because those are things that nobody else can fix for you.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    37:44-37:52

    So if you wanna look at an Instagram checklist and say, these are the things that I need to do in order to not be racist, To me, that's grossly ineffective.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    37:56-37:58

    It's gonna look different for everybody.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    37:58-38:01

    So following a checklist, I don't think it's gonna work.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    38:01-38:03

    You've gotta look inside your own heart.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    38:03-38:09

    You've gotta do the work to remove those things that might be hateful and that might make somebody look different because of their color.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    38:09-38:11

    You've gotta put the legwork in to remove those things.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    38:11-38:15

    It's not gonna be a checklist on how to do this that's gonna do it for you.

    Mark Ort:

    38:15-38:16

    Right, right.

    Mark Ort:

    38:16-38:25

    So the introspection is really good But it's something that, you know, we've had conversations with our family about this very thing.

    Mark Ort:

    38:26-38:29

    And the ability to listen to the other side.

    Mark Ort:

    38:30-38:40

    And that, you know, you mentioned social media and one of the hashtags that goes around is I saw the silence is violence.

    Mark Ort:

    38:41-38:42

    What do you say to that?

    Mark Ort:

    38:42-38:47

    Like, you know, you know, silence can be good.

    Mark Ort:

    38:47-38:53

    Do we want to be entirely quiet or do we need to speak up as a church on these matters?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    38:54-39:02

    Yeah, I mean that's a really good point and I know that I've seen the quote quite a bit on social media that like silence is the language of the oppressor, right?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    39:02-39:11

    I've seen it everywhere and I think it's a quote that does not really sit well with me and has not sat well with me watching this go on.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    39:12-39:22

    Because I think largely what's being interpreted as silence is a lack of addressing it on social media. And I had, which is like, again, a social media has become the age of like doing.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    39:23-39:53

    And I think people are equating posting on social media about these things to actual action. So if you're not posting about it, then you don't care. And I've had quite a few people tell me that. And I'm like, no, it's not that I don't care. It's that I'm taking the time to educate myself. I'm taking the time to learn. And then I'm going to share with you what my heart feels to be true. And obviously I'm going to look to scripture for answers because scripture is the only book that has the answers on how to fix these issues.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    39:54-39:59

    So if we're looking elsewhere, we're wrong. I think we need to spend less time on social media.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    39:59-40:06

    We need to spend more time in prayer. We need to spend more time in the word. And that is the only way that you are going to see a difference made in this world.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    40:08-40:23

    I think that's it. Point blank, period. If we're looking to social media for the answers that only God has, and it's really in a book that is sold in like Ollie's and like Barnes and Noble, like you can get a Bible anywhere.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    40:23-40:23

    Right.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    40:23-40:27

    Like, go get one and the answers are right in front of you.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    40:27-40:27

    Right.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    40:27-40:37

    Because it's not going to be a social media checklist, it's not going to be a nice graphic that somebody made on Canva saying this is how to not be racist, follow these instructions and you're good.

    Pastor Jeff:

    40:37-40:37

    Right.

    Pastor Jeff:

    40:37-40:42

    It's going to be being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

    Pastor Jeff:

    40:42-41:39

    what God wants for you, Romans 8.29. And it's only through that that, you know, we walk by the power of the Holy Spirit. It's funny you say that, you know, not going by the checklist, that's like kind of Old Testament thinking, right? Don't do this on the Sabbath, don't do this on the Sabbath. And the Bible says we don't live like that anymore. We live under the power of the Holy Spirit, right? We have God's presence indwelling us, so it is, you the way Christ did, and he did. You know, you see, you know, even we studied in John him sitting down at the well with the Samaritan woman. I mean, that was a huge thing. But we see, you know, his grace, and we see just him very naturally reaching out to somebody very different than him, but he had something for her, as we do as a church. Do we have any questions? We are like a little OT here, and that's okay, I don't hear anybody complaining.

    Pastor Jeff:

    41:40-41:42

    Do we have any questions that were texted in?

    Pastor Jeff:

    41:43-41:43

    Oh, they're up there?

    Pastor Jeff:

    41:44-41:45

    Okay, I'm sorry, I'm looking at...

    Pastor Jeff:

    41:46-41:47

    Okay, Tiffany, you ready?

    Pastor Jeff:

    41:48-41:48

    Ready.

    Pastor Jeff:

    41:48-41:57

    One of my new co-workers, in a nutshell, is less than professional in her behavior, attendance, attire, work ethic, etc.

    Pastor Jeff:

    41:57-42:04

    I realize she isn't doing these things due to her race, but the struggle is that she bluntly said, "If they fire me, I will just play the race card.

    Pastor Jeff:

    42:05-42:07

    This is such a struggle for me." Wow.

    Pastor Jeff:

    42:07-42:08

    How do you respond to that?

    42:09-42:10

    I

    Tiffany Seitz:

    42:10-42:13

    personally am not a fan of pulling the race card.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    42:14-42:23

    Because if you're going to be fired from this job because of your behavior, attendance, attire, work ethic, et cetera, it's not because you're black.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    42:23-42:26

    It's because you're clearly bad at work.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    42:28-42:30

    I think that that really speaks for itself.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    42:30-42:35

    And I just don't love using the color of your skin as a crutch, right?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    42:35-42:46

    to come back and say like, "Oh, they fired me because I'm black." No, and I think that that's, again, a negative that might possibly come out of this season is more people doing that.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    42:47-42:55

    And I personally am not a fan of that, but again, you're not gonna prevent that from happening, sadly.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    42:55-43:05

    But again, I think it's pretty clear there are a lot of reasons why she's gonna be fired, and none of them have to do with the fact that she's black.

    43:06-43:06

    The

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:06-43:08

    person that submitted this question, should they address this person?

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:09-43:10

    Or can they?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    43:11-43:18

    I mean, in the event that she came and told you, I'm gonna pull the race card if they fire me, then by all means, yeah, address it with her.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    43:18-43:24

    I think that that's perfectly appropriate if she's come to you and said, if they fire me, I'm gonna do this.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    43:24-43:26

    I think it's appropriate to address that.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    43:26-43:36

    But if it's a generalized statement and she said it to multiple people, And I think that it would be a touchy subject if it were addressed to her personally after just generalizing the statement.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    43:36-43:42

    It might be a little bit touchy, but if it was something that was personally addressed to you, then yes, by all means, I would definitely address that.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    43:42-43:54

    Because I just, again, if we don't wanna be looked at for the color of our skin being different, then I don't think that we should pull the race card if we're gonna be fired for things that are bad.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    43:54-43:55

    Right,

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:55-43:55

    right.

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:57-43:58

    Yeah, that's a really good question.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    43:59-43:59

    Great

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:59-43:59

    answer.

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:59-44:00

    Any more that came in?

    Pastor Jeff:

    44:02-44:08

    Okay, Tiffany, how has your life been impacted by racism and how are you overcoming or dealing with this?

    Pastor Jeff:

    44:08-44:09

    That's a really good question.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    44:09-44:11

    Yeah, that's an excellent question.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    44:11-44:17

    You know, I have not, thankfully, experienced racism on a great deal.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    44:17-44:19

    I've never experienced overt racism.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    44:20-44:26

    It's only been like little things like being followed around in retail stores because they think I'm going to steal something.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    44:28-44:37

    The new one is asking me every three minutes if I want help while I'm browsing the clearance rack because they think I'm just gonna walk out of here with the security tags on.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    44:39-44:40

    From the clearance rack.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    44:40-44:41

    Exactly, from the clearance rack.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    44:42-44:43

    I mean, I'm a thrift shopper.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    44:45-44:50

    Not rich, but I do have the money to buy what you think I'm going to steal or something.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    44:50-44:50

    I don't know.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    44:52-44:54

    But it's just little teeny tiny things.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    44:57-45:01

    How I've handled those over the years is you kind of have to let it roll off your back like water.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    45:01-45:06

    I think we live in the age of offense where people are offended by everything.

    Pastor Jeff:

    45:07-45:07

    And

    Tiffany Seitz:

    45:07-45:14

    if you're going to be offended by everything, then I would almost say that you're part of the problem.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    45:14-45:22

    I think that there are things that will be out of our control that we aren't going to be able to do what we want with those.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    45:22-45:26

    And at the end of the day, I just really think that we've got to let God handle the things that aren't ours.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    45:27-45:28

    You know, vengeance is not ours.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    45:28-45:31

    He'll take care of those people that are wronging us and that are hurting us.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    45:31-45:33

    It's not our job to do that.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    45:34-45:53

    But you know, again, I have the choice to either live in the era of being offended all the time by what I'm seeing, or I can just go about my life being a normal human being and recognizing that everybody around me is beautiful, everybody around me is created differently, and that's something that I'm going to continue to celebrate regardless.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    45:54-45:57

    And if people don't want to celebrate that with me, then that's okay.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    45:57-45:58

    God will deal with them on that.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    45:59-46:00

    It's not my job to change their mind.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    46:00-46:04

    And certainly I, as one person, am not going to cure the ignorance of a thousand people.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    46:05-46:13

    So again, it's my choice to be offended, but I'm going to continue to walk in what I know to be the truth, and that truth is God's Word.

    Mark Ort:

    46:14-46:22

    To that point, Tiffany, one of the questions that I really have had during this whole thing that's going on in the news lately.

    Mark Ort:

    46:23-46:26

    And you mentioned the word offense this morning.

    Mark Ort:

    46:26-46:34

    And so the burning question for me is what sorts of things would offend you if there are anything?

    Mark Ort:

    46:35-46:41

    Just so that I know, maybe I don't know I'm offending somebody of another race.

    Mark Ort:

    46:41-46:43

    What sort of things offend you?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    46:45-46:45

    Sure.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    46:45-46:57

    I mean, like I said, it's very little I get offended by simply because I've been just asked a myriad of questions and I know that they're obviously asked with good intent and people know my background prior to asking questions.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    46:58-47:04

    They know that I have white parents, they know that I have one black sibling and I am a black woman in a mixed family.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    47:04-47:08

    So I mean for me it's just like, it doesn't really bother me.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    47:08-47:21

    But I think if there were like any things that bother me, it's just like, to look at somebody and you can see it sometimes as well, to look at somebody and just automatically assume that they're less than, I think is like the biggest offense to me.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    47:22-47:25

    And that won't come out in like very specific things.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    47:26-47:29

    It's kind of just like the way that we do life sometimes.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    47:29-47:36

    It's just kind of, you know, it's something that's ingrained in us that we might not even realize that it's happening.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    47:36-47:43

    But I think just, you know, kind of killing the mindset that there are people in this world that are less than when God created us all equal.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    47:44-47:49

    And I don't think that it should have taken until like 2020 to realize that's the case, you know.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    47:49-47:59

    So, you know, I can't really think of anything immediately that like would offend me, but I'm also one that's just like, you know, ask me anything because I'm not offended.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    47:59-47:59

    You know

    Mark Ort:

    47:59-48:00

    what I mean?

    Mark Ort:

    48:00-48:11

    What about like television shows like Dukes of Hazzard or, you know, the cancel culture or products that have black people on them that, you know, they're removing certain products off the shelves.

    Mark Ort:

    48:11-48:15

    Do those sorts of things bother you, offend you?

    Mark Ort:

    48:15-48:21

    I mean, are they doing a good thing by, you know, like taking Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben off of products?

    Mark Ort:

    48:22-48:24

    Like, is that okay with you?

    Mark Ort:

    48:24-48:25

    Or is that something we should be doing?

    Mark Ort:

    48:26-48:34

    I never, like, you know, I've had those products and I never once looked at them and thought, oh, that's racist, but maybe that's, maybe I have something to work on.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    48:35-48:45

    Sure, you know, I was thinking to myself the other day, I was reading about the whole Aunt Jemima situation and I was thinking, I was like, the first thought that came to my mind was like, are we really now offended by maple syrup?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    48:45-48:47

    Like that's literally the first thing that crossed my mind.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    48:47-48:47

    We are.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    48:47-48:50

    I was like, people, come on.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    48:50-48:57

    Like, you know, if you actually read the history behind Aunt Jemima, it's really fascinating history.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    48:57-49:00

    And it's actually like, she did a lot of amazing things.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    49:01-49:04

    And having her on maple syrup is not racist.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    49:04-49:16

    But again, these are people that are looking at things and they're taking them at face value and they're saying, oh, she's an example of modern day slavery in 1860, so we need to rip her off the maple syrup bottle.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    49:16-49:29

    But I'm like, if you actually took the time to read about the fact that Aunt Jemima did really amazing things-- and I could be historically inaccurate here, but I believe that she helped with the Underground Railroad, you know, something like that.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    49:29-49:30

    She did

    Pastor Jeff:

    49:30-49:33

    really-- She became one of the first black millionaires.

    Pastor Jeff:

    49:33-49:33

    Yes.

    Pastor Jeff:

    49:33-49:36

    She went from slave to millionaire.

    Pastor Jeff:

    49:36-49:37

    Yeah, that's amazing.

    Pastor Jeff:

    49:37-49:38

    She should be celebrated for that.

    Pastor Jeff:

    49:38-49:39

    We should

    Tiffany Seitz:

    49:39-49:40

    be applauding that.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    49:40-49:41

    Absolutely, that's amazing.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    49:41-49:45

    And again, it's just, you know, we have a choice to be offended by certain things.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    49:45-49:52

    And I don't think that we should be taking like prominent black people off of bottles, especially if their contributions were really, really amazing.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    49:53-49:56

    And you know, the way in which they look might need to be updated, sure.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    49:57-50:00

    But how far are we going to get?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    50:00-50:07

    And how are we going to, you know, continue to address ignorance if we're busy being offended by maple syrup?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    50:08-50:09

    know what I mean? I think that like... And it's not even

    Pastor Jeff:

    50:09-50:21

    a race thing because in the past couple weeks I found out Spongebob Squarepants is gay. Did you know that? No, I did not know that. Yeah, they came out Spongebob is gay and... Interesting. Sponge?

    50:22-50:22

    What's that?

    Mark Ort:

    50:22-50:23

    A sponge?

    Pastor Jeff:

    50:24-50:37

    Yes. Okay. Spongebob Squarepants is gay and Elmer Fudd and Yosemite Sam aren't allowed to have guns in the Looney Tunes remake. Interesting. And I'm like Why are we so focused on cartoons?

    Pastor Jeff:

    50:38-50:40

    There are real people with real problems out there.

    Pastor Jeff:

    50:40-50:40

    >> Oh, sure.

    Pastor Jeff:

    50:41-50:41

    I know.

    Pastor Jeff:

    50:41-50:43

    >> And we're attacking cartoons.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    50:43-50:57

    >> I know that there was -- I was reading Disney is thinking of -- I think it's one of their roller coasters in Walt Disney World that they're considering rebranding because it has -- the movie that's based off of is Song of the South, which is a vaulted Disney movie.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    50:58-51:04

    And in that movie it talks -- you know, it's the mistreatment of black people and it very much addresses the age of slavery and kind of makes a joke about it.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    51:04-51:14

    So people have been offended by that movie, so now they think that we should make it a Princess Tiana ride, which I wouldn't be offended by because people told me I look like that.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    51:14-51:14

    So that's awesome.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    51:17-51:24

    But just again, just taking-- again, I would never have known that that ride was based off of that movie had I never read about it.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    51:25-51:28

    But is it one step too far?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    51:28-51:36

    I mean, I think that addressing active racism between us, But I mean, a Disney ride is, you know, that people have never even looked at until now.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    51:38-51:40

    I think our energies would be a lot more useful elsewhere.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    51:41-51:41

    Yeah,

    Pastor Jeff:

    51:41-51:43

    yeah, I think so.

    Pastor Jeff:

    51:44-51:44

    I think so.

    Pastor Jeff:

    51:45-51:46

    Let's take one or two more questions.

    Pastor Jeff:

    51:46-51:48

    We have... No, that was it.

    Pastor Jeff:

    51:48-51:49

    Do you want to do the mic?

    Pastor Jeff:

    51:50-51:51

    You know what?

    Pastor Jeff:

    51:51-51:52

    I think we're about done.

    Pastor Jeff:

    51:53-51:56

    Do we have any, like, one really, really urgent pressing question?

    Pastor Jeff:

    51:57-51:59

    Absolutely, we cannot leave until it's asked.

    Pastor Jeff:

    52:01-52:03

    If you have a question like that, we'll answer that one.

    Pastor Jeff:

    52:03-52:06

    Darla does. Go ahead, say it from your seat.

    Pastor Jeff:

    52:07-52:10

    Mark, she'll say it from her seat and you're going to repeat it into the mic so we have it on the recording.

    Pastor Jeff:

    52:12-52:22

    So the question is, how do we as white people sort of respond to "Black Lives Matter", "All Lives Matter" and...

    Pastor Jeff:

    52:22-52:27

    Black Lives Matter is a hard thing because it's a statement but it's also an organization.

    Pastor Jeff:

    52:27-52:30

    And I would agree with one but not necessarily the other.

    Pastor Jeff:

    52:30-52:31

    Tiffany, would you speak to that, please?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    52:32-52:46

    Sure, I know that I've had it come up in conversation that people are really leery of saying the phrase Black Lives Matter because they fear that it might be associated with the movement that largely wants to defund the police, which is a whole other issue.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    52:47-52:52

    So I know that there is a lot of taboo around saying Black Lives Matter.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    52:52-52:57

    And I think that all of us agree in this room that all lives do matter.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    52:58-53:02

    And right now, and for the past 400 years, I think it's been the black lives that have been hurting.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    53:03-53:05

    And I don't think that it's bad to acknowledge that.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    53:06-53:06

    You know what I mean?

    Tiffany Seitz:

    53:06-53:14

    So I think taking the time to make sure that everybody's treated equally, I think that's really the most important thing.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    53:14-53:21

    And you don't necessarily have to be associated with the movement in order to assure that people are treated equally around you.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    53:21-53:27

    And I think that that perhaps is the most important thing that we can do is stand up to injustice when you see it.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    53:27-53:36

    Because I think largely what this season has done for us is it has made us aware of the fact that there is indeed injustice that goes unrecognized every day.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    53:36-53:43

    I know that these three murders that have happened and in counting that are still happening to this day have made us aware.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    53:43-53:46

    And there are so many others like that that don't get media attention.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    53:47-54:01

    So I think that us in our personal lives going about that and making sure that we as Christians can speak to the fact that we are all created equal.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    54:01-54:03

    And I know that that's not what people wanna hear right now.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    54:03-54:18

    I know that they wanna hear Black Lives Matter, and I know that that's something, a hashtag that really I've refrained from using because I do believe that all lives matter, but I do have the understanding as a black woman living through this season that black voices have been hurting for such a long time.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    54:19-54:45

    to think that segregation, we think it's hundreds of years ago, when it's not hundreds of years ago. It's still within the last 50, 60 years that that was a reality. And to think that had I been alive during that season, I would not be able to be in this room with you right now. So to think those things are really, really jarring. But I understand that not everybody wants to hear all lives matter right now as much as we all believe that to be true.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    54:46-54:55

    I think that going above and beyond to assure that we at the end of the day know that we're human and we all deserve that equality.

    54:56-54:56

    Well,

    Pastor Jeff:

    54:56-54:58

    Tiffany, thank you so much for being our guest today.

    Pastor Jeff:

    54:59-54:59

    It's my pleasure.

    Tiffany Seitz:

    55:00-55:01

    Thank you for having me.

    Pastor Jeff:

    55:09-55:43

    And I'm sure, as Dr. Andrews said, I'm sure this is only the beginning of conversations for a lot of people, but I think your insight really pointed us in the right direction in a lot of ways. So I appreciate you taking the time and joining us. If our worship team would come back up to the platform, I'm going to pray and we're going to close our time by worshipping the Lord together. Let's pray. Father in heaven, we thank you that you've made it so clear in your word that you take horrible things and you use them for glorious things.

    Pastor Jeff:

    55:45-55:46

    We see it with your son.

    Pastor Jeff:

    55:47-55:51

    His brutal execution was the way that you purchased our salvation.

    Pastor Jeff:

    55:52-56:00

    And somehow, Father, we believe that You're going to use this day of racism and reaction to and violence.

    Pastor Jeff:

    56:00-56:03

    We believe, Father, that You are going to use this.

    Pastor Jeff:

    56:04-56:08

    And it might be hard for us to see now how You're going to use this, but we believe that You are.

    Pastor Jeff:

    56:09-56:24

    Father, I pray for this church, that we would stand ready to represent Christ as we leave from here and go back to our homes, go back to our neighborhoods, go back to our workplaces, go back to wherever You have us.

    Pastor Jeff:

    56:25-56:30

    Father, let us represent the love of Jesus Christ that is for all people.

    Pastor Jeff:

    56:31-56:36

    Father, thank You for the work that I'm sure You started today, that You're going to carry through.

    Pastor Jeff:

    56:37-56:39

    I pray in Jesus' name, Amen.

Small Group Questions (Whole Group):

Discuss any of the topics covered on Sunday! Consult the thorough notes I’m certain you took.

Breakout Questions:
Pray for our nation - and pray for our church to have opportunity to love people with the Gospel in the face of racial tension.

Questions from the Congregation - Part 12

Note: The time signatures [00:00] below indicate the start of a question if you'd like to skip to a particular one of interest in the audio file.

  1. [02:42] - Q: God said it was not good for man to be alone and created women. Why wouldn't God have the same for Himself?
    A: See John 17:5, 24 | Ephesians 5:25-32 | Revelation 19:9

  2. [05:54] - Q: What is a Christ-like response to people you don't know stopping you on the street and asking for money? What's the best way to show the love of Christ without enabling/hurting more than helping the situation?

    A: The safest bet is to offer them food. But always make it an opportunity to share the gospel with them.

  3. [12:20] - Q: The Bible states "absent from the body present with the Lord" but also talks about the dead in Christ will rise at Christ's return and forever be with the Lord. Explain please.
    A: See 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 | 1 Corinthians 15:35-55

  4. [14:26] - LIVE TXT Q: We are to believe that the Bible is the truth because it is Gods word, and I want to believe this, but the Bible has been translated and copied so many times by so many people. What if the truth has been lost in the process?
    A: The test to verify an ancient document, the Biblographical Test. 2nd ancient document, the Homer’s Ilead 600ish copies…the New Testament has 24,000+ ancient copies.

  5. [23:29] - Q: Christ tells us to do communion but He also washed feet and told us to do that too. Why do some churches wash feet and not others. (BTW the fact that we don't is not a problem with me.)
    A: See John 13:15 - For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you.

  6. [27:47] - LIVE AUDIENCE Q: Could you talk about eschatology? What the church’s position is on end times. His scripture descriptive of what’s going to happen, what’s already been fulfilled, just generally like that.
    A: See Revelation, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Daniel 9 | Last year we covered the entire book of Revelation.


  7. [30:50] - Q: Can you please explain to me the meaning of Psalm 108:7-9? thank you.
    A: See Psalm 57:7-11 | Psalm 60:5-12

  8. [33:39] - Q: To my understanding, the devil was cast from Heaven due to the sin of Pride, is that correct? And if so, I don't understand that as I didn't think sin was possible in Heaven? Thanks.
    A: See Revelation 12:4 | Matthew 25:41

  9. [35:00] - LIVE TXT Q: How does Harvest reconcile the thought that some parts of scripture are cultural (like head coverings) but others like the role of women in the church are not?
    A: See Timothy 2:11-15 | It’s the context of and surrounding the passage as to whether it’s cultural or theological, take out your biases and read the text straightforwardly.

  10. [39:21] - Q: Melchizedek. Please Explain.
    A: See Hebrews 7 | Psalm 110:4 | Genesis 14
    Melchizedek was a “type”, a picture of the Messiah, in at least 5 ways:
    1 – His name: my king is Righteousness
    2 – His title: King of Salem (Peace)
    3 – He was BOTH king AND priest
    4 – He was not a Levitical priest (Jesus was from Judah)
    5 – No beginning or end. Mel shows up suddenly and vanishes suddenly from the Scriptures, no genealogy or parents mentioned, “resembling Jesus” as a “priest forever”. (Heb7:3)

  11. [42:58] - Q: What about white privilege and racism? And what about diversity in our church? How are we supposed to respond as a body and as individuals?
    A: Join us next week for a Bonus QnA day! Bring your friends and family as we have a special guest joining the QnA, submit your questions now!


    Any question that was missed due to time constraints during the service Pastor Jeff will address the answer
    on the blog.

Sermon Notes (PDF): BLANK
Hint: Highlight blanks above for answers!

  • Pastor Jeff:

    00:00-00:18

    Good morning again, please welcome up to the platform mr.. Mark Ort

    Mark Ort:

    00:00-00:18

    Good morning

    Pastor Jeff:

    00:00-00:18

    How long do we want to go?

    Mark Ort:

    00:00-00:18

    40 minutes? We normally do 40 minutes?

    Pastor Jeff:

    00:00-00:18

    You want to do for you want to 40 minutes?

    Pastor Jeff:

    00:19-00:21

    Gosh, don't you people have anything else to do today?

    Pastor Jeff:

    00:23-00:29

    Nope? Alright 40 minutes I'm just kidding. I love Q&A day!

    Mark Ort:

    00:23-00:33

    Q&A day is my family's favorite day here.

    Mark Ort:

    00:33-00:35

    They love Q&A day.

    Mark Ort:

    00:35-00:44

    And I had a conversation with my two boys over the weekend, Friday I think it was, with Jesse in particular.

    Mark Ort:

    00:44-00:50

    And one of the reasons why we love Q&A day, I love the answer that my son gave me.

    Mark Ort:

    00:52-00:56

    It's a fun day, but the Bible has answers.

    Mark Ort:

    00:56-00:58

    And you guys have questions.

    Mark Ort:

    00:58-01:06

    And oftentimes, some of those questions may not get answered just because of what we're going through.

    Mark Ort:

    01:07-01:11

    If we're going through the book of John, we might not be answering a question about something else.

    Mark Ort:

    01:11-01:22

    And so, kids, when they grow up, and they're kind of captive audience here, when they get old enough to do their own thing, they often leave the church.

    Mark Ort:

    01:23-01:27

    And they leave the church mainly because the church has not given them answers on things.

    Mark Ort:

    01:28-01:32

    And we know at Harvest that the Bible has answers.

    Mark Ort:

    01:32-01:42

    So that's why I think my family likes Q&A days, because we have answers, and we're ready to do that today.

    Pastor Jeff:

    01:42-01:43

    That's right. That's right, Mark. Thank you.

    Pastor Jeff:

    01:44-01:47

    And I didn't start the timer yet, by the way, so none of that counts.

    Pastor Jeff:

    01:48-01:58

    But we have questions you submitted, and you can actually text your question to this number, 412-324-3147.

    Pastor Jeff:

    01:59-02:05

    And when you text your question, just include "Q&A" or "question" in your text.

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:05-02:08

    And if we have time to get to it, we'll get to it.

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:08-02:10

    We might be passing the microphone around today.

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:12-02:17

    But as usual, we got some really good questions that came in ahead of time.

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:18-02:23

    So without further ado--

    Mark Ort:

    02:18-02:23

    OK, well, I think we're ready to start.

    Mark Ort:

    02:23-02:24

    What do you think?

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:24-02:25

    Timer's going, my friend.

    Mark Ort:

    02:25-02:31

    All right, as usual, the questions are really, really good.

    Mark Ort:

    02:32-02:37

    Jeff sends me the questions ahead of time so I can be a little bit prepared as well.

    Mark Ort:

    02:37-02:43

    And every time I look at the questions, I'm like, "Man, these are really good." So, Jeff, question number one.

    Mark Ort:

    02:44-02:48

    God said it was not good for man to be alone and created women.

    Mark Ort:

    02:49-02:51

    Why wouldn't God have the same for Himself?

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:51-02:53

    That is a really good question.

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:53-02:55

    You hear the Bible talks about that.

    Pastor Jeff:

    02:55-03:00

    We're going through the Gospel of John right now in a series called "Knowing Jesus." And we didn't get there yet.

    Pastor Jeff:

    03:01-03:05

    Actually, we've seen some comments from Jesus already about His relationship with the Father.

    Pastor Jeff:

    03:06-03:11

    But we're going to see it in much greater detail when we get to John 17.

    Pastor Jeff:

    03:11-03:18

    John 17.5, Jesus is praying to the Heavenly Father.

    Pastor Jeff:

    03:18-03:19

    Do we have that verse up?

    Pastor Jeff:

    03:21-03:23

    But this is part of Jesus' prayer to His heavenly Father.

    Pastor Jeff:

    03:23-03:32

    He says, "Now, Father, glorify Me in Your own presence with the glory that I had with You before the world existed." And then you jump down to verse 24.

    Pastor Jeff:

    03:33-03:37

    Again, Jesus continues talking about the church praying for us.

    Pastor Jeff:

    03:37-03:52

    "I desire that they also whom You have given Me may be with Me where I am to see My glory that You have given Me, because," look at this, "You loved Me before the foundation of the world." So, within the Trinity, there's a perfect relationship.

    Pastor Jeff:

    03:53-03:55

    And you're like, "Can you explain that?" I can't.

    Pastor Jeff:

    03:56-04:01

    Okay, God is one, but He's revealed Himself as three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    Pastor Jeff:

    04:02-04:05

    And I can't explain that any more than a fruitful "I can explain it" iPhone.

    Pastor Jeff:

    04:06-04:08

    I believe it, but I can't explain it.

    Pastor Jeff:

    04:09-04:12

    But Jesus very clearly showed that God was never alone.

    Pastor Jeff:

    04:12-04:14

    It wasn't like God was sitting in heaven, like, bored.

    Pastor Jeff:

    04:15-04:22

    like he had this obvious perfect relationship with the Son that Jesus was referring to here.

    Pastor Jeff:

    04:22-04:30

    And on top of that, you're like, "Well, why doesn't God have a bride?" Well, the truth is, Jesus does have a bride.

    Pastor Jeff:

    04:30-04:32

    And who is the bride, Mark?

    Mark Ort:

    04:33-04:37

    Yeah, you are. The church is the bride of Christ.

    Mark Ort:

    04:38-04:50

    And Ephesians 5 talks about that. We don't have to read all of this, But Ephesians 5, 25-32 talks about the relationship between husbands and wives, and that's the goal.

    Mark Ort:

    04:50-05:00

    In every marriage relationship, the husband is to love the wife the way Christ loved the church, and the wife is to love the husband the way the church loves Jesus Christ.

    Mark Ort:

    05:00-05:04

    And that whole dynamic is to be at play in the marriage relationship.

    Mark Ort:

    05:05-05:09

    But all of that to say, Jesus Christ has a bride for the church.

    Mark Ort:

    05:09-05:20

    And remember, when we went through Revelation, Revelation 19.9 talks about heaven, as we have it underlined here, the marriage supper of the Lamb.

    Mark Ort:

    05:20-05:21

    That's what heaven is like.

    Mark Ort:

    05:22-05:24

    It's like a big wedding party.

    Mark Ort:

    05:25-05:26

    And why?

    Mark Ort:

    05:26-05:36

    It's because the groom has prepared this place for his bride, and now his bride has come to be with him, and they have this big marriage reception.

    Mark Ort:

    05:36-05:39

    And we're going to be a part of that, if you're a believer in Jesus Christ.

    Mark Ort:

    05:39-05:42

    So, does God have a wife? Yes.

    Mark Ort:

    05:43-05:44

    Jesus Christ does have a bride.

    Mark Ort:

    05:45-05:50

    And if you're a follower, if you're a born-again believer in Christ, you are part of that bride, the church.

    Pastor Jeff:

    05:52-05:53

    Amen, Jeff. Thank you for that.

    Pastor Jeff:

    05:54-05:55

    Second question.

    Pastor Jeff:

    05:57-06:03

    What is a Christ-like response to people you don't know stopping you on the street and asking for money?

    Pastor Jeff:

    06:04-06:11

    What's the best way to show the love of Christ without enabling or hurting more than helping the situation.

    Pastor Jeff:

    06:11-06:15

    I think we've all had people approach us and ask us for money.

    Pastor Jeff:

    06:16-06:17

    So how do we respond to that?

    Mark Ort:

    06:17-06:20

    And that's the thing is, you know, you can't...

    Mark Ort:

    06:20-06:23

    I don't think you can judge rightly in this situation.

    Mark Ort:

    06:23-06:26

    You don't know exactly what's going on with that person, what's in their heart.

    Mark Ort:

    06:27-06:31

    And I don't think there is a right and wrong answer here.

    Mark Ort:

    06:31-06:38

    I believe that if you feel like the Spirit is calling you to do something, then I think absolutely you should do it.

    Mark Ort:

    06:39-06:40

    Right? And maybe if this is...

    Mark Ort:

    06:40-06:51

    It sounds like whoever wrote this, this is like part of their regular routine, like maybe something like, "Every day when I go to work, I'm approached by these people." I would encourage, maybe be prepared for that.

    Mark Ort:

    06:52-06:58

    Maybe pack an extra sandwich or pack an extra, you know, foil, pack a Pop-Tarts, right?

    Mark Ort:

    06:59-07:09

    And maybe you leave a little early and sit down and talk to the person, share the gospel with them, hear their story, whatever.

    Mark Ort:

    07:10-07:15

    It is hard because you don't just want to walk around with a wad of 20s and be like Oprah Winfrey, right?

    Mark Ort:

    07:15-07:21

    "Everybody gets a 20!" And is that going to fix anything? Probably not.

    Mark Ort:

    07:21-07:25

    But if you feel like God's calling you to do something, yeah, do something, but be proactive about it.

    Mark Ort:

    07:26-07:26

    Like, have a plan.

    Mark Ort:

    07:28-07:29

    I'm going to share real quick.

    Mark Ort:

    07:29-07:50

    One time I was walking into Walmart in Cranberry and there was a guy sitting by the row of carts outside with a cardboard sign that was like, "Please help." So I stopped and I said, "I'll go into McDonald's right here. What do you want? I'll bring you some McDonald's." And he's like, "Ah, how about a couple of cheeseburgers, whatever?" I'm like, "Great." So I went in, got him his food, and came back out.

    Mark Ort:

    07:50-07:53

    And I had some time, so I sat down with him.

    Mark Ort:

    07:54-07:56

    Just sat down by the carts with him, gave him his cheeseburgers.

    Mark Ort:

    07:57-08:05

    I said, "Well, I want to hear your story. Tell me, you know, what brought you here, why are you here?" and he was telling me, "He doesn't want a home." He goes, "This is how I choose to live.

    Mark Ort:

    08:05-08:12

    I just like to travel, I'm from Georgia, and I go all over the place." And I shared the gospel with him.

    Mark Ort:

    08:13-08:33

    But the funny thing was, as I was sitting there talking to this guy, no joke, there was probably a dozen, 15 people in that short amount of time, as I'm sitting there talking to this guy, walking by, looking at me going, "You poor guy," and then trying to give me money.

    Mark Ort:

    08:34-08:41

    Now, I'm trying to be polite because I didn't want to be like, "Hey, I'm not begging! I have a job!" I didn't want to be like that.

    Mark Ort:

    08:42-08:44

    But how do you respectfully say that?

    Mark Ort:

    08:44-09:00

    So I was just like, "Yeah, why don't you give it to him?" And they're like, "You need to eat too, young man." And I'm like, "Do I look homeless?" And look, but anyways, and so many people came by with bags of food.

    Mark Ort:

    09:01-09:09

    So I stayed a little longer and I left with like $170 that day and, you know, 15 meals from McDonald's.

    Mark Ort:

    09:09-09:09

    No, I didn't.

    Mark Ort:

    09:09-09:13

    I gave everything to that guy, but he made out like a bandit that day.

    Mark Ort:

    09:13-09:23

    But anyways, my point is we look at that guy and we're like, "Oh, poor homeless guy lost his job and we don't know the story." So I just sat down and talked to the guy and he's like, "I choose to live this way.

    Mark Ort:

    09:23-09:26

    "I don't want a home, I like to travel." Like, okay.

    Mark Ort:

    09:27-09:33

    So anyway, shared the gospel with them, and saw the generosity of Cranberry.

    Pastor Jeff:

    09:33-09:41

    I could probably tell a hundred stories about this type of thing, because I did some homeless ministry in the late '90s in Pittsburgh.

    Pastor Jeff:

    09:41-09:43

    And just two things real quick.

    Pastor Jeff:

    09:44-10:24

    One person who was asking for money, later on as I was talking, he told our group, he said, "If we ask you for money, give us money because we use the money for drugs for the most part he said what we really need is like health care we need food take us to a restaurant that that was his advice as a homeless person and I thought that was pretty good advice because that helped I think I think we're exercising wisdom when we do that kind of thing instead of just shoving a $20 bill in their face another Another man that I spoke to at -- it was actually the old stadium in Pittsburgh.

    Pastor Jeff:

    10:25-10:28

    He was a panhandler and that was his job.

    Pastor Jeff:

    10:28-10:32

    And he told me that he could make $200 a night at a pirate game.

    Pastor Jeff:

    10:33-10:45

    And I don't know where he lived or anything like that, but instead of the money thing, it might be better to ask if they need something to eat.

    Pastor Jeff:

    10:45-11:07

    I was in a restaurant just a few weeks ago in Butler, and I was waiting for my sandwich with my bandana over my face, and this lady came rushing in with -- she had two bandanas on, and she had a check in her hand, and she wanted the guy behind the counter to cash her check, and he refused.

    Pastor Jeff:

    11:07-11:09

    He said, "We don't cash checks here.

    Pastor Jeff:

    11:10-11:13

    We're not a bank." And she went into a flying rage.

    Pastor Jeff:

    11:13-11:18

    she went into a rage because she wanted money.

    Pastor Jeff:

    11:20-11:21

    And she said, "What am I gonna do to eat?

    Pastor Jeff:

    11:22-11:41

    I don't have," and she's screaming at this point, "I don't have any food to eat." And so before I even had a chance to respond to her on the side, the man behind the counter, and I don't know if he was a Christian or not, he did what we should maybe do, offer food.

    Pastor Jeff:

    11:42-11:44

    offer the food to the woman.

    Pastor Jeff:

    11:44-11:45

    And so he did that.

    Pastor Jeff:

    11:45-11:53

    He said, "Ma'am, you don't have to go flying off the handle." He said, "I'll give you some sandwiches if you need a sandwich for you, your family." And she refused.

    Pastor Jeff:

    11:54-11:57

    She didn't want the sandwich, she wanted to rip them off basically.

    Pastor Jeff:

    11:57-12:02

    So I say all that, just we need to be wise as serpents, right? - Yeah.

    Pastor Jeff:

    12:02-12:03

    That's what the scripture says.

    Pastor Jeff:

    12:03-12:04

    Right. - And Gentiles, doves.

    Pastor Jeff:

    12:05-12:10

    Offer help where we think the Spirit is leading us, but we need to be wise about those kinds of things.

    Mark Ort:

    12:10-12:11

    Yeah, absolutely, we do.

    Mark Ort:

    12:13-12:17

    Let's do one more on here and then maybe see if one got texted in or you want to pass the mic or whatever.

    Pastor Jeff:

    12:18-12:29

    Okay, the Bible states, "Absent from the body, present with the Lord." But also talks about the dead in Christ will rise at Christ's return and forever be with the Lord.

    Mark Ort:

    12:30-12:30

    Please

    Pastor Jeff:

    12:30-12:30

    explain.

    Mark Ort:

    12:31-12:35

    All right, 1 Thessalonians 4, verses 15 through 17.

    Mark Ort:

    12:38-13:32

    says, "For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord that we who are alive who are left until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep." That was a euphemism for death. "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command with the voice of an archangel and with the sound of the trumpet of God and the dead in Christ will rise first then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air so we will always be with the Lord. So this is actually talking about our bodily resurrection which will happen at the rapture. So yeah when you die, if you died today, your soul would be with the Lord. But at the rapture, that's when the dead in Christ receive their resurrected bodies, right?

    Mark Ort:

    13:33-13:38

    And they're glorified bodies that Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians chapter 15.

    Mark Ort:

    13:39-14:14

    But Paul says that those who are alive in Christ on the earth at the time, they will, you know, obviously when he returns at the rapture, the dead in Christ will rise first, receive their glorified bodies, then those who are alive at his coming will receive theirs. So, yeah, that's all part of the rapture that Paul, again, also talks about. 1 Corinthians 15, verses 35 through 55, same thing. So, yeah, your soul will be with Christ now, but you will not get your glorified body until the rapture.

    Pastor Jeff:

    14:16-14:17

    Does that make sense?

    Pastor Jeff:

    14:18-14:18

    That makes sense.

    Mark Ort:

    14:18-14:20

    That's a hard question. We get that one a lot.

    14:22-14:22

    Mike,

    Pastor Jeff:

    14:22-14:25

    do we have any texted questions?

    Mark Ort:

    14:26-14:28

    This one's texted in. All right, Mark, go ahead.

    14:30-14:30

    "We

    Pastor Jeff:

    14:30-14:41

    are to believe that the Bible is the truth because it is God's Word, and I want to believe this, but the Bible has been translated and copied so many times by so many people.

    Pastor Jeff:

    14:41-14:45

    What if the truth has been lost in the process?"

    Mark Ort:

    14:45-14:49

    Right. That's a really good question, and one we get a lot.

    Mark Ort:

    14:49-14:51

    Here's the answer to that. It's an easy answer.

    Mark Ort:

    14:52-14:53

    Because there's a test for this.

    Mark Ort:

    14:54-14:58

    The test is how do you verify the accuracy of an ancient document, right?

    Mark Ort:

    14:58-15:04

    How do you know that what we have in our hands today is actually the same as was originally written?

    Mark Ort:

    15:05-15:06

    That's the question, right?

    Mark Ort:

    15:07-15:09

    And the answer is what's called the bibliographical test.

    Mark Ort:

    15:10-15:11

    And what's the bibliographical test?

    Mark Ort:

    15:11-15:22

    It's when you take as many ancient copies of a document as you can, and you compare them, one with another, to see if they're all saying the same thing, and then you can kind of sort of compare what we have today.

    Mark Ort:

    15:22-15:28

    Does it line up with the comparison that we have of all the ancient documents?

    Mark Ort:

    15:28-15:37

    Now, the number two ancient document that passes the bibliographical test is the Iliad by Homer.

    Mark Ort:

    15:38-15:38

    Not Homer Simpson.

    Mark Ort:

    15:39-15:41

    Homer the poet, all right?

    Mark Ort:

    15:41-15:46

    But there were 600 and some ancient copies of the Iliad.

    Mark Ort:

    15:46-15:57

    So if you were to go to a university professor, an English professor, and say, "Ancient... who teaches Homer? Is that literature? Ancient literature?" - Literature, English, philosophy.

    Mark Ort:

    15:58-16:07

    If you were to go to some guy in some school somewhere, and say, "Do we have a reliable copy of the Iliad?" He would laugh at you and say, "Well, of course we do, because we have 600 and some ancient copies.

    Mark Ort:

    16:08-16:11

    So we are absolutely sure that what we have today...

    Mark Ort:

    16:11-16:13

    Now, Iliad's number two.

    Mark Ort:

    16:14-16:18

    Do you know what the number one ancient document is that passes the bibliographical test?

    Mark Ort:

    16:18-16:18

    Do you know what it is?

    16:19-16:19

    What

    Pastor Jeff:

    16:19-16:19

    could it be? - The

    Mark Ort:

    16:19-16:20

    New Testament.

    Mark Ort:

    16:21-16:24

    Iliad had 600 and some. Do you know how many is the New Testament?

    Mark Ort:

    16:24-16:26

    It's like 24,000.

    Mark Ort:

    16:27-16:33

    Okay, so we have like 20-some thousand ancient copies of the New Testament that we can compare one with another.

    Mark Ort:

    16:33-16:35

    So the answer is, yeah.

    Mark Ort:

    16:35-16:45

    We are absolutely sure that the Bible we have in our hands is really, really almost exactly what was written.

    Mark Ort:

    16:45-16:58

    Yeah, there's going to be some nuances in words and meanings because languages change over time, but the overall meaning and message and words of the New Testament, we are really sure about that. Like, really sure.

    Mark Ort:

    16:59-17:07

    So it's not a question of, "Does it say what it originally said?" The question is, "Do you believe what it actually says?" So, yeah, that's a really good question and one that we get asked a lot.

    Pastor Jeff:

    17:07-17:10

    And we can study things like discoveries.

    Pastor Jeff:

    17:11-17:18

    I'm thinking in particular like the Dead Sea Scrolls that were discovered, what, in 1951 or 1950?

    Pastor Jeff:

    17:19-17:20

    '47? Yeah.

    Pastor Jeff:

    17:21-17:46

    So, you know, 70 years ago or whatever, they found these documents in caves that were rolled up in little scrolls in these containers, these glass containers, And they found different pieces of the Old Testament, and in particular, the biggest piece that they found was almost the entire book of Isaiah.

    Pastor Jeff:

    17:47-17:56

    And so they unraveled these things and they looked at them and they discovered, wow, it's almost word for word what we have right now.

    Pastor Jeff:

    17:56-18:05

    And so those kinds of archeological digs and discoveries confirm what we already believe to be true about the Scripture.

    Mark Ort:

    18:05-18:18

    And you read, before we had like printing presses and Xerox and copy machines, if you've ever done any studies on how people copied the ancient manuscripts, it's insane.

    Mark Ort:

    18:19-18:31

    Like I read stories literally where you would have these people that were like professional copyists, they would do a letter at a time, and they would copy a letter, and then they they would go take a bath.

    Mark Ort:

    18:32-18:38

    And then they would come back, because they were like ritually clean enough to do it again, and they would copy another letter.

    Mark Ort:

    18:39-18:41

    And then they'd go take another bath.

    Mark Ort:

    18:41-18:43

    And then they'd come and they'd copy another letter.

    Mark Ort:

    18:43-18:45

    How long do you think that would take, right?

    Mark Ort:

    18:46-18:47

    Like they were really clean people, right?

    Mark Ort:

    18:48-18:55

    So, but there's other stories like that where it was a painstaking process.

    Mark Ort:

    18:55-18:57

    It wasn't just eyeballing.

    Mark Ort:

    18:57-19:06

    Oh, and then the other thing is, If you, in the process, if you accidentally copied a letter down wrong, you had to take it and...

    Pastor Jeff:

    19:06-19:07

    You had to trash the whole book.

    Pastor Jeff:

    19:07-19:07

    You had to

    Mark Ort:

    19:07-19:11

    trash it, you had to actually bury it, because it was too holy to throw it away.

    Mark Ort:

    19:11-19:18

    So you had to like roll it up and you had to like ceremonially like bury the thing because you wrote a letter down wrong.

    Pastor Jeff:

    19:19-20:01

    And I don't want to belabor the point on this particular question, another element to this question that probably would take a whole sermon, but however many people there are in here, there may be six or seven or eight English translations. I mean, we have the New Living Translation, we have the New American Standard, we have the King James, the New King James, the NIV, and the list goes on. And part of this question may be that, like, how do we know which one of those is the most accurate, or which one should we be reading, which one's a better study Bible, which one's more literal, which one's more... and we can ask all those questions.

    Pastor Jeff:

    20:02-20:23

    But I think the principle is that there were principles of translation that godly scholars had used in developing these newer translations. And we could go through the history of all those and when they came out and why they came out and who worked on them.

    Pastor Jeff:

    20:24-20:27

    And I did look into that stuff in great detail some years ago.

    Pastor Jeff:

    20:28-20:36

    And there are reliable translations like the NIV, the scholarship that went into the NIV and the New American Standard.

    Pastor Jeff:

    20:37-20:46

    And like these guys were, and most recently probably the ESV, I think it's Justin Taylor was on the ESV translation board.

    Pastor Jeff:

    20:46-21:01

    And if you've read anything by Justin Taylor, a godly individual who wants to be accurate, and they would meet in these committees, and, you know, is this what the original language was actually trying to say?

    Pastor Jeff:

    21:02-21:04

    What did they mean when they were writing these things?

    Pastor Jeff:

    21:05-21:16

    And so we have to have faith in the Lord that he's going to preserve his word down through to the generations in a language that we can understand.

    Mark Ort:

    21:17-21:23

    Right on. And there are some translations that are better than others, but I'm not going to split hairs on that, because let's be honest.

    Mark Ort:

    21:24-21:30

    And the English translations that we have, can you read them and get the message of the gospel?

    Mark Ort:

    21:30-21:34

    Like, yeah, you can. Except maybe the message.

    Mark Ort:

    21:34-21:38

    I'm not sure about that one. But the other ones...

    Mark Ort:

    21:38-21:41

    I just really offended somebody here, but...

    Mark Ort:

    21:41-21:41

    I think,

    Pastor Jeff:

    21:41-21:46

    I mean, when you bring that up, Jeff, the message is a paraphrase.

    Pastor Jeff:

    21:46-21:47

    It's a paraphrase, right.

    Pastor Jeff:

    21:47-21:53

    So it is somebody's, and actually the message individually, and if you have the message, I'm not condemning you.

    Pastor Jeff:

    21:54-21:55

    No, we're not condemning you.

    Pastor Jeff:

    21:55-22:02

    But it's a paraphrase from somebody who, that's his take on what the Bible says.

    Pastor Jeff:

    22:03-22:06

    But there's a difference between a paraphrase and a translation.

    Pastor Jeff:

    22:06-22:13

    And we wanna make sure, I think, that we are getting a translated copy from the original language.

    Pastor Jeff:

    22:13-22:27

    And just to throw some out there, if you have an ESV, if you have an NIV, if you have a New American Standard, if you have a New King James, if you have a King James for that matter, I mean, those are translations from the original.

    Pastor Jeff:

    22:27-22:37

    And a paraphrase like the Living Bible, not the New Living Translation, but the Living Bible that I think was popular in the '70s is a paraphrase.

    Pastor Jeff:

    22:38-22:41

    And I would just recommend steering away from those.

    Pastor Jeff:

    22:41-22:45

    But if you have one and it helps you, I'm not going to say that you're...

    Pastor Jeff:

    22:45-22:46

    You can still

    Mark Ort:

    22:46-22:47

    get the message of the Gospel.

    Pastor Jeff:

    22:48-22:48

    Exactly.

    Mark Ort:

    22:48-22:49

    Through that.

    Mark Ort:

    22:49-22:50

    So we're not condemning you.

    Mark Ort:

    22:52-22:53

    But I'm not going to split hairs.

    Mark Ort:

    22:53-23:02

    I know some people are King James only, and some people are like, "NIV? You mean the newly inspired version?" Like, okay, whatever.

    Pastor Jeff:

    23:03-23:14

    And if we study the translation principles people used in all these versions, I think we have again a greater appreciation for each individual translation.

    Pastor Jeff:

    23:14-23:15

    I

    Mark Ort:

    23:15-23:17

    just don't have the energy to fight about that.

    Mark Ort:

    23:17-23:19

    I know some people do, but that's just not me.

    Mark Ort:

    23:19-23:24

    I'm like, read the Bible, be a Bible student, use different translations.

    Mark Ort:

    23:25-23:27

    But that's a fantastic question.

    Mark Ort:

    23:27-23:27

    It's

    Pastor Jeff:

    23:27-23:28

    a really good question.

    Mark Ort:

    23:29-23:29

    How about

    Pastor Jeff:

    23:29-23:30

    this one, Jeff?

    Pastor Jeff:

    23:30-23:36

    Christ tells us to do communion, but He also washed feet, and told us to do that too.

    Pastor Jeff:

    23:37-23:39

    Why do some churches wash feet and not others?

    Pastor Jeff:

    23:40-23:44

    By the way, the fact that we don't is not a problem with me.

    Pastor Jeff:

    23:45-23:47

    And I say, Amen.

    Mark Ort:

    23:50-23:56

    That disclaimer really helped me narrow down who I think asked the question.

    Mark Ort:

    23:57-23:58

    Oh, here's the thing.

    Mark Ort:

    23:59-24:05

    This comes from John 13, where Jesus washed the disciples' feet.

    Mark Ort:

    24:06-24:09

    In verse 15, Jesus gives the reason.

    Mark Ort:

    24:09-24:16

    He says, "For I have given you an example that you also should do, just as I have done to you." Why do some churches wash feet?

    Mark Ort:

    24:17-24:19

    Because they take this very literally.

    Mark Ort:

    24:20-24:21

    Jesus literally meant that.

    Mark Ort:

    24:22-24:29

    In Jesus' culture, foot washing was the job of the lowest slave.

    Mark Ort:

    24:30-24:37

    Why? Well, living in the Middle East in the first century, wearing sandals, people's feet would get dirty.

    Mark Ort:

    24:39-24:40

    Just by walking around everywhere.

    Mark Ort:

    24:40-24:46

    They weren't driving in their cars, they were walking in the dirt all the time.

    Mark Ort:

    24:46-24:49

    So that was a very common problem. People had dirty feet.

    Mark Ort:

    24:49-24:55

    and the lowest slave in the house, it was their job to clean the feet of guests that came to the house.

    Mark Ort:

    24:56-25:04

    So understanding that as the backdrop, that gives you the significance of John chapter 13, that Jesus would do the job of the lowest slave.

    Mark Ort:

    25:04-25:16

    That Jesus wasn't like, "Hey, son of God, that's a little beneath me." Like when they came, Jesus said, "I will serve in the most degrading way possible.

    Mark Ort:

    25:17-25:32

    I will do the job of the lowest of the low." And I think that's what Jesus meant when He said, "Now I've left you an example." I don't think it's about washing feet as much as it's about being willing to take on the lowest job.

    Mark Ort:

    25:32-25:43

    So in our culture, you might say, "Hey, Pastor Jeff, I want to help in the church." And what if I said to you, "Hey, I want you to take the garbage out after service." You're like, "Well, you don't know who I am, Jeff.

    Mark Ort:

    25:43-25:57

    I'm the CFO of a major company and I don't take the garbage out." Like, "Oh, you know the son of God washed feet. Did you know that?" You're like, "Well, how can I help?" "Well, you know, we need somebody to help clean the bathrooms." "Oh, you don't understand, Pastor Jeff.

    Mark Ort:

    25:57-26:10

    I am a medical doctor and I don't clean bathrooms." I'm like, "Well, God washed feet, so you're too good. Why?" I think that's the whole meaning behind this.

    Mark Ort:

    26:10-26:18

    As Christians, we see ourselves as being willing to humble ourselves to do any job.

    26:19-26:20

    Yeah,

    Pastor Jeff:

    26:20-26:21

    that's a really good question.

    Pastor Jeff:

    26:21-26:28

    I was at a wedding once where the bride and the groom washed each other's feet.

    Pastor Jeff:

    26:29-26:40

    And I thought that was, at first, when I saw them getting ready to do it, I'm thinking to myself, this is really weird, because I grew up in a church that did foot washings like twice a year.

    Pastor Jeff:

    26:41-26:43

    And even as a 10 year old, I thought it was kind of weird.

    Pastor Jeff:

    26:45-26:52

    But as I sat and watched the thing happen at the wedding, I thought about what you're saying here, Jeff.

    Pastor Jeff:

    26:53-27:03

    The bride and the groom were showing in that act their love and mutual respect for one another and submission to one another.

    Mark Ort:

    27:04-27:04

    And it was

    Pastor Jeff:

    27:04-27:05

    a beautiful

    Mark Ort:

    27:05-27:05

    picture.

    Mark Ort:

    27:05-27:07

    And as a symbolic act, yeah, absolutely.

    Mark Ort:

    27:07-27:08

    I don't have a problem with it.

    Mark Ort:

    27:08-27:09

    Yeah, it was a beautiful

    Pastor Jeff:

    27:09-27:12

    picture, just like baptism is a beautiful picture.

    Pastor Jeff:

    27:14-27:22

    But it was, like you said, Jeff, it was Jesus's way of saying, do these kinds of things.

    Pastor Jeff:

    27:22-27:28

    You don't have to actually go out and wash somebody's feet, but if they ask you to take the garbage out, you might want to consider.

    Pastor Jeff:

    27:28-27:28

    But it might

    Mark Ort:

    27:28-27:29

    include that.

    Mark Ort:

    27:29-27:30

    I mean, you know what I mean?

    Mark Ort:

    27:31-27:44

    I think there's a broader principle here, Because we can make it just about foot washing, and then we're like, "Hey, I need you to help clean the bathrooms or take the garbage out." Like, "Well, Jesus didn't do that." Well, I think there's a principle there.

    Pastor Jeff:

    27:46-27:46

    Thanks, Jeff.

    Pastor Jeff:

    27:47-27:49

    All right, any questions out here?

    Pastor Jeff:

    27:50-27:50

    Yes.

    Mark Ort:

    27:52-27:56

    Could you talk about eschatology, what the church's position is on end times?

    Mark Ort:

    27:57-27:59

    Is scripture descriptive of what's going to happen?

    Mark Ort:

    27:59-28:02

    What's already been fulfilled, just kind of generally like that?

    Mark Ort:

    28:04-28:05

    Yeah, absolutely.

    Mark Ort:

    28:05-28:08

    We went through the book of Revelation last year.

    Mark Ort:

    28:09-28:10

    And that's the long version of the answer.

    Mark Ort:

    28:10-28:24

    The short version is I believe that the events that are laid out in Revelation and are discussed like in Matthew 24, Mark 13, I believe those are going to happen.

    Mark Ort:

    28:24-28:27

    I believe there's a future seven-year tribulation that's coming.

    Mark Ort:

    28:29-28:34

    Preceding that tribulation, I believe there's a rapture when God removes His people from the earth.

    Mark Ort:

    28:34-28:38

    And I believe that with the removal of the church and the earth, you're going to see the seven years of hell on earth.

    Mark Ort:

    28:38-28:40

    Those are the seven years of tribulation.

    Mark Ort:

    28:40-28:46

    Revelation, and Christ returns to establish His thousand-year kingdom on the earth.

    Mark Ort:

    28:47-28:51

    And then after the thousand-year kingdom is the great white throne judgment.

    Mark Ort:

    28:51-28:55

    So I believe that the events of Revelation point to a seven-year period.

    Mark Ort:

    28:56-28:59

    And then Daniel, also Daniel 9, talks about this.

    Mark Ort:

    28:59-29:05

    But I believe these are future events that are going to happen literally as they're laid out in the book of Revelation.

    29:07-29:07

    Yeah,

    Pastor Jeff:

    29:07-29:12

    I think you even addressed this in your Revelation sermons, and I remember this.

    Pastor Jeff:

    29:13-29:19

    I think it's, "We see the church in Revelation 1, 2, 3, and 4."

    Mark Ort:

    29:19-29:24

    Well, you see, Revelation 2 and 3 is the church, the church, the church.

    Mark Ort:

    29:24-29:27

    The seven churches, Revelation 4 and 5, you see worship in heaven.

    Mark Ort:

    29:28-29:30

    And then there's no mention at all of the church throughout the entire tribulation.

    Pastor Jeff:

    29:31-29:32

    That's

    Mark Ort:

    29:32-29:33

    one reason I believe the church is raptured out.

    Pastor Jeff:

    29:34-29:42

    Yeah, it's a really good point, because if the church was in that period, you would think that there would be something said to them.

    Pastor Jeff:

    29:42-29:43

    There would be a mention.

    Pastor Jeff:

    29:43-29:45

    An encouragement, a warning, something.

    Pastor Jeff:

    29:45-29:46

    Nations, unbelievers,

    Mark Ort:

    29:46-29:55

    Israel, all of them are mentioned, but you don't see not one mention, not a word, not a passing comment, nothing about the church during that time.

    Mark Ort:

    29:55-30:05

    And some people say, "Well, I don't believe the church is raptured out because why would God's people be exempt from suffering?" And I would say, "Well, look at God's track record.

    Mark Ort:

    30:05-30:06

    Look at the Bible.

    Mark Ort:

    30:07-30:13

    Every time God brings judgment on unbelievers, He removes His people every time." Remember Noah's flood? What happened?

    Mark Ort:

    30:13-30:15

    Judgment, God removed His people.

    Mark Ort:

    30:15-30:17

    Remember Sodom and Gomorrah? What happened?

    Mark Ort:

    30:17-30:19

    Judgment, God removed His people.

    Mark Ort:

    30:19-30:21

    Look at Israel in the wonders of the wilderness.

    Mark Ort:

    30:21-30:24

    When people would rebel against God, what did God tell Moses?

    Mark Ort:

    30:25-30:30

    "Hey, get your people out of there, because I'm about to torch some people." He'd remove his people.

    Mark Ort:

    30:30-30:36

    So it's not unreasonable to think when the end times come, God's bringing judgment on the earth, what's the first thing he does?

    Mark Ort:

    30:36-30:37

    Remove his people.

    Mark Ort:

    30:38-30:45

    So I believe the church is not going to be here during the events of the seven-year tribulation.

    Pastor Jeff:

    30:46-30:48

    Thank you. Is there another question out here?

    Pastor Jeff:

    30:49-30:49

    Before we move on?

    Pastor Jeff:

    30:51-30:58

    Okay, "Could you please explain to me the meaning of Psalm 108.7-9?"

    Mark Ort:

    30:58-31:02

    Yeah, this is a really good question. Let's look at the verses here, and then I'm going to do a little explanation.

    Mark Ort:

    31:03-31:03

    Okay.

    Mark Ort:

    31:05-31:18

    "God has promised in His holiness, 'With exultation I will divide up Shechem and portion out the valley of Sukkoth, Gilead is mine. Manasseh is mine. Ephraim is my helmet.

    Mark Ort:

    31:19-31:23

    Judah is my scepter. Moab is my washbasin.

    Mark Ort:

    31:24-31:38

    Upon Edom I cast my shoe. Over Philistia I shout in triumph." Now interestingly, Psalm 108 is a combination of Psalm 57 and Psalm 60.

    Mark Ort:

    31:39-31:43

    The first five verses are from Psalm 57, verses 7-11.

    Mark Ort:

    31:44-31:50

    verses 6-13 and Psalm 108, or from Psalm 60, verses 5-12.

    Mark Ort:

    31:51-31:53

    Here's the question. What's going on here, Ani?

    Mark Ort:

    31:55-31:56

    Explain to me what's happening.

    Mark Ort:

    31:57-32:01

    Well, alright. Verses 7 and 8, here's what's happening.

    Mark Ort:

    32:01-32:14

    It's God's very poetic way of saying, "Israel belongs to me." Now understand, Israel has always been the focal point of attacks and enemies and invasions, and always, even until today, right?

    Mark Ort:

    32:14-32:16

    So Israel has always been the focal point.

    Mark Ort:

    32:16-32:22

    This is God's way of saying, "Israel's mine." "She's mine. She belongs to me." And it doesn't matter what all these nations are doing.

    Mark Ort:

    32:23-32:27

    "Israel belongs to me," is what God is saying.

    Mark Ort:

    32:27-32:31

    And verse 9 refers to the enemies of Israel.

    Mark Ort:

    32:31-32:34

    That's Moab, that's Edom, that's Philistia.

    Mark Ort:

    32:34-32:35

    Those are enemies.

    Mark Ort:

    32:35-32:38

    And God is using poetic language for the enemies.

    Mark Ort:

    32:40-32:46

    He says, "First of all, Moab is my wash basin." That's a picture of humility. Moab thinks they're big and tough.

    Mark Ort:

    32:47-33:01

    God's like, "I brush my teeth and spit in Moab. That's how tough Moab is." And He says, "Eat them before I cast my shoe." It's a picture of walking into somebody's house and taking your shoes off, and the servant's there.

    Mark Ort:

    33:01-33:07

    It's like, "Hey, servant, take care of these shoes for me." God's like, "The mighty Edom, that's what Edom is to me.

    Mark Ort:

    33:07-33:13

    Hey, hey, take care of my shoes, boy." And Philistia, "I shout in triumph." I mean, that's pretty self-explanatory.

    Mark Ort:

    33:14-33:18

    Philistia, the Philistines, you know, long history of oppression on Israel.

    Mark Ort:

    33:18-33:24

    God's like, "They're going to know who's really in charge here." So that's what's happening there.

    Mark Ort:

    33:24-33:31

    It's two things, God claiming ownership of Israel and claiming ultimate triumph and humility over the enemies of Israel.

    Mark Ort:

    33:33-33:35

    Somebody's been studying their Psalms.

    Mark Ort:

    33:36-33:37

    That's a really good question.

    33:38-33:38

    I

    Pastor Jeff:

    33:38-33:39

    like that question.

    Pastor Jeff:

    33:39-33:46

    "To my understanding, the devil was cast from heaven due to the sin of pride. Is that correct?

    Pastor Jeff:

    33:46-33:52

    And if so, I don't understand that, as I didn't think sin was possible in heaven."

    33:52-33:53

    Well,

    Mark Ort:

    33:53-34:00

    it seems that the angels had one choice, to remain faithful to God or to go with the devil.

    Mark Ort:

    34:00-34:05

    The Bible says a third went with the devil We call those angels demons.

    Mark Ort:

    34:05-34:08

    We see this in Revelation 12.

    Mark Ort:

    34:09-34:13

    Verse 4, talking about the devil as a dragon.

    Mark Ort:

    34:13-34:27

    "His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth." So, our understanding, putting the Scriptures together, is a third of the angels rebelled with Satan.

    Mark Ort:

    34:27-34:29

    And we call those angels demons today.

    Mark Ort:

    34:30-34:32

    And their day of judgment is coming.

    Mark Ort:

    34:32-34:40

    Actually, Jesus said in Matthew 25, 41, that the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels.

    Mark Ort:

    34:41-34:43

    Interesting way of phrasing that.

    Mark Ort:

    34:44-34:53

    But ultimately, everyone ends up in the lake of fire with the devil and angels who don't receive the gift of salvation that Christ so generously offers.

    Mark Ort:

    34:55-34:56

    Do we have any more that were texted

    Pastor Jeff:

    34:56-34:57

    in?

    Pastor Jeff:

    34:57-34:58

    Yeah, I was just going to ask Mike.

    Pastor Jeff:

    35:00-35:02

    All right, let me read that to you, Jeff.

    Pastor Jeff:

    35:02-35:12

    "How does Harvest reconcile the thought that some parts of Scripture are cultural, like head coverings, but others, like the role of women in the church, are not?"

    35:12-35:12

    That's

    Mark Ort:

    35:12-35:13

    a really good question.

    Mark Ort:

    35:13-35:14

    It's the context of the passage.

    Mark Ort:

    35:16-35:19

    Like, for example, it's context of the passage.

    Mark Ort:

    35:20-35:23

    Let's talk about the role of women in the church, because we get this one a lot.

    Mark Ort:

    35:26-35:27

    1 Timothy 2.

    Mark Ort:

    35:29-35:31

    in verses 11 through 15.

    Mark Ort:

    35:33-35:35

    But the context determines that, right?

    Mark Ort:

    35:36-35:40

    Because there are some things that are obviously, in the context of the passage, they're cultural.

    Mark Ort:

    35:41-35:48

    Like, okay, he's talking to a particular people in a particular city at a particular time about a particular thing.

    Mark Ort:

    35:48-35:54

    But some things are not cultural in nature, they are theological in nature.

    Mark Ort:

    35:54-35:57

    And that's why I want to bring this to your attention.

    Mark Ort:

    35:59-36:06

    1 Timothy 2, verse 11, Paul says, "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness." He's talking about in the context of church.

    Mark Ort:

    36:07-36:10

    But look at what he says in verse 12.

    Mark Ort:

    36:11-36:15

    This is where it gets dicey for some people.

    Mark Ort:

    36:16-36:22

    He says, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

    Mark Ort:

    36:24-36:29

    Rather, she is to remain quiet." And people right there say, "Yeah, that was a cultural issue right there.

    Mark Ort:

    36:29-36:34

    That was cultural. The reason he said that was cultural." Well, look at the next verse.

    Mark Ort:

    36:35-36:39

    He says, "For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

    Mark Ort:

    36:40-36:44

    And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

    Mark Ort:

    36:45-36:54

    Yet she will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self-control." So the question is, Paul's reasoning.

    Mark Ort:

    36:55-37:00

    Is his reasoning cultural, or is his reasoning theological?

    Mark Ort:

    37:02-37:07

    Just take out your biases and look at the text straightforwardly.

    Mark Ort:

    37:07-37:17

    He didn't say, "Because Timothy and Ephesus, the culture doesn't permit women to..." He doesn't go into anything cultural.

    Mark Ort:

    37:18-37:22

    He goes straight into - this is a theological thing, it goes all the way back to creation.

    Mark Ort:

    37:24-37:31

    You get a look at the context of the passage, and that determines, are we talking about a theological issue, or a cultural issue?

    Mark Ort:

    37:32-37:34

    Are there principles that are to be carried on, like the foot-washing thing?

    Mark Ort:

    37:35-37:38

    Or is it something that obviously pertains to just the people in that setting?

    Pastor Jeff:

    37:40-37:47

    Just the head covering in specific, and maybe you already alluded to this, but why don't we wear head coverings here?

    Mark Ort:

    37:48-37:50

    I think that was more of a cultural thing.

    37:53-37:53

    What

    Pastor Jeff:

    37:53-37:53

    do you think?

    Pastor Jeff:

    37:54-37:58

    I thought, based on what I read, I think it's cultural.

    Mark Ort:

    38:00-38:00

    Right.

    Mark Ort:

    38:01-38:04

    So, obviously I didn't study that one as much as the first one.

    Mark Ort:

    38:05-38:07

    But hey, that's what happens when you get these ad hoc questions.

    Mark Ort:

    38:10-38:12

    I'm just going to do that from now on.

    Mark Ort:

    38:13-38:16

    If I don't know the answer, I'm just going to say, It was cultural.

    Mark Ort:

    38:19-38:21

    No, I'm kidding aside, I really think that was cultural.

    Mark Ort:

    38:22-38:25

    Have I done in-depth studies on head coverings? No.

    Mark Ort:

    38:25-38:27

    Not any time in the last 15 years, probably.

    Pastor Jeff:

    38:29-38:44

    Well, I don't know if this probably doesn't add anything to the conversation at all, but we belonged to a church a long time ago where they started going that route, where somebody saw that, hey, women are wearing head coverings in the scriptures, so we need to do that.

    Pastor Jeff:

    38:45-38:48

    And so there was a contingent of people that started wearing head coverings.

    Pastor Jeff:

    38:48-38:58

    And we would talk to them and ask them why, and there wasn't a real good explanation other than the fact that they saw some things happen in the Bible with head coverings.

    Pastor Jeff:

    39:00-39:03

    That's not something that we participated in.

    39:04-39:04

    What

    Mark Ort:

    39:04-39:05

    is that, in 1 Corinthians?

    Mark Ort:

    39:06-39:06

    Is that right?

    Mark Ort:

    39:07-39:08

    I believe

    Pastor Jeff:

    39:08-39:08

    it is.

    Mark Ort:

    39:08-39:11

    It has been a long time since I studied that, so yeah.

    Mark Ort:

    39:12-39:13

    I'm not as up to speed on that.

    Mark Ort:

    39:14-39:17

    But I know the women's authority in church thing is theological.

    Mark Ort:

    39:18-39:18

    I know that.

    39:21-39:21

    All

    Pastor Jeff:

    39:21-39:23

    right, next question on our sheet here.

    Pastor Jeff:

    39:24-39:30

    This is the shortest Q &A question that I've ever seen, and I love it because it's only three words.

    Pastor Jeff:

    39:31-39:33

    Melchizedek, please explain.

    Pastor Jeff:

    39:36-39:37

    If only the answer were that

    Mark Ort:

    39:37-39:38

    short.

    Mark Ort:

    39:39-39:39

    All right.

    Mark Ort:

    39:42-39:46

    Melchizedek. I'm going to look at my notes here because we're running low on time.

    Mark Ort:

    39:47-39:50

    Oh, we are under a minute. Let me see if I can do it in under a minute. Ready?

    Mark Ort:

    39:51-39:53

    Hebrews 7 talks about Melchizedek.

    Mark Ort:

    39:53-39:57

    Jesus the Messiah was promised to be a part of Melchizedek's order, not in the order of the Levites.

    Mark Ort:

    39:57-40:01

    That comes from Psalm 110, verse 4. A very key verse in the Old Testament.

    Mark Ort:

    40:02-40:40

    "The Lord has sworn he will not change his mind. You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek." Melchizedek. Genesis 14, he was the king of Salem. He blessed Abraham and Abraham gave Melchizedek a tenth of everything. He paid him a tithe. Melchizedek was a priest. This is a significance. In the Old Testament law, you couldn't be both priest and king, but the Messiah was prophesied to be both priest and king, so he would be in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of the Levites. Melchizedek predates the law. It was even greater than Abraham, therefore he was greater than the Levites, Abraham's eventual offspring, proved by the fact that Abraham gave Melchizedek the tithe.

    Mark Ort:

    40:41-40:46

    I didn't do it. I'm out of time. I'm sorry.

    40:47-40:48

    You

    Pastor Jeff:

    40:48-40:48

    are loved.

    Mark Ort:

    40:48-40:49

    You are loved.

    Mark Ort:

    40:53-41:02

    Okay, the point of Melchizedek, Jesus came from his line of priests, not the Levitical line of priests.

    Mark Ort:

    41:03-41:06

    And that's absolutely significant.

    Mark Ort:

    41:07-41:15

    Because the whole point of Hebrews is God has fulfilled and finished everything from Old Testament law in the person of Jesus Christ.

    Mark Ort:

    41:16-41:19

    And his point is Jesus wasn't even a Levitical priest.

    Mark Ort:

    41:19-41:23

    To keep that going, Jesus was a priest from the line of Melchizedek.

    Mark Ort:

    41:23-41:27

    He was a picture, or a type of Jesus in five ways.

    Mark Ort:

    41:27-41:37

    His name, Melchizedek, means "my King is righteousness." His title, he was the king of Salem, like Jerusalem, or Shalom, that means peace.

    Mark Ort:

    41:37-41:38

    He was the king of peace.

    Mark Ort:

    41:39-41:45

    He was both king and priest, which under the Old Testament law you were not allowed to have both offices.

    Mark Ort:

    41:46-41:48

    Melchizedek did, Jesus does.

    Mark Ort:

    41:49-41:56

    He was not a Levitical priest, again, because the Mosaic law was fulfilled, now obsolete according to Hebrews.

    Mark Ort:

    41:56-41:58

    And he had no beginning or end.

    Mark Ort:

    41:58-42:06

    Melchizedek wasn't timeless, he just means "on the page." He shows up suddenly, and he vanishes suddenly from Scripture.

    Mark Ort:

    42:06-42:11

    There's no genealogy, we don't know who Melchizedek's parents were, but they were great at picking names.

    Mark Ort:

    42:11-42:16

    And it says he resembled Jesus as a priest forever.

    Mark Ort:

    42:17-42:20

    So, using just sort of the...

    Mark Ort:

    42:20-42:24

    He's like, yeah, Genesis 14, he kind of comes from nowhere, and he sort of vanishes.

    Mark Ort:

    42:25-42:43

    He's like, "That's kind of like Jesus, he's timeless." But there's a lot of other ways, like Jesus, and that's what, under Holy Spirit inspiration, prompted the psalmist to say about the Messiah, "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind." The Father is saying this about the Son.

    Mark Ort:

    42:43-42:58

    "You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." That is a really good question, and it would take us several weeks to really plumb the depths of everything about Melchizedek.

    Pastor Jeff:

    42:59-43:03

    >> Well, listen, we had a couple other questions that we're not going to get to.

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:03-43:06

    And you're probably going to write some things about that on the blog, right?

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:06-43:06

    >> Yeah, I'll put

    Mark Ort:

    43:06-43:07

    them on the blog, yeah.

    Mark Ort:

    43:07-43:09

    But there was one other question you wanted to bring up.

    Mark Ort:

    43:09-43:10

    >> Yeah, I had another

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:10-43:11

    question that came through.

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:11-43:20

    It was actually the first question that Jeff had texted me whenever Q&A day was mentioned in planning.

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:21-43:26

    The question, and I don't have it in front of me, but you'll get the gist of it.

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:27-43:30

    What about white privilege and racism?

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:30-43:32

    And what about diversity in our church?

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:33-43:39

    And so I started to research where the term came from.

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:40-43:48

    Obviously, the race issue is all over our televisions and our news feeds and things like that in recent days.

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:48-43:57

    and that was a question that came in, like how can our church address, what do we do as a church to address these things?

    Pastor Jeff:

    43:57-44:10

    How are we supposed to respond as a body and maybe as individuals to these really important and serious questions that are in our country today?

    Pastor Jeff:

    44:11-44:15

    And we are going to attempt to answer that next week.

    Pastor Jeff:

    44:15-44:17

    Yes. - In part two of Q&A.

    Mark Ort:

    44:18-44:20

    We are taking a whole session on this, and here's why.

    Mark Ort:

    44:21-44:34

    We got that question submitted, and I know the men in our small group, we share a little Google Hangout box, but it generated a lot of interesting discussion, even among us, like about diversity in the church and response to racism.

    Mark Ort:

    44:34-44:40

    And I was hearing of other conversations happening, like, yeah, I have some questions about that too.

    Mark Ort:

    44:40-44:50

    So we thought instead of, you reached out to Tiffany because she's Libby's dance instructor, And we're asking her some questions about this.

    Mark Ort:

    44:50-44:54

    As a black woman and as a Christian, what's your perspective on this?

    Mark Ort:

    44:54-44:59

    You know, raised by white parents, I mean, she has a whole, you know, wild story.

    Mark Ort:

    45:00-45:04

    And Mark, you had shared with me some of the things that she had shared with you.

    Mark Ort:

    45:04-45:07

    I called and talked to her and got to hear from her.

    Mark Ort:

    45:07-45:17

    And we thought, after talking to the elders of the church, we thought it was just too much good communication to try to squeeze it in on Q&A day.

    Pastor Jeff:

    45:18-45:23

    And for us to relay to you what she told us, you're gonna hear it secondhand from us.

    Pastor Jeff:

    45:23-45:30

    So for you to hear directly from her, I think is really gonna be a gripping and compelling session next week.

    Mark Ort:

    45:31-45:42

    Right, and a lot of people have race-related questions and it's gonna be better coming from her instead of like, here's two middle-aged white guys schooling us about racism.

    Mark Ort:

    45:44-45:46

    It's going to be much better coming from her.

    Mark Ort:

    45:47-45:55

    She has such a powerful perspective, and very articulate, and Christ-centered gospel focused.

    Mark Ort:

    45:55-46:08

    Not just jumping on some bandwagon of hysteria, but her perspective as a black woman is just very Christ-centered.

    Mark Ort:

    46:08-46:17

    She's like, "Here's what the Bible says, therefore here's how the church should respond." It's very refreshing to hear that in our day of just screaming and chaos.

    Pastor Jeff:

    46:18-46:34

    That was our goal in inviting her, was to hear solutions and perspectives from somebody who is going to be reaching into the Word of God rather than the hysteria that we see going on.

    Pastor Jeff:

    46:35-46:41

    And that's our goal, as always, with any of these questions, is we want to be biblical about it.

    Pastor Jeff:

    46:42-46:48

    We said at the beginning, the Bible has the answers to our questions, including the tough ones about racism.

    Mark Ort:

    46:48-46:50

    And we're going to be opening the floor.

    Mark Ort:

    46:50-47:01

    If you want to ask her a question or text a question, she is willing to take some Q&A time just ad hoc like this to maybe ask her about the head coverings.

    Pastor Jeff:

    47:03-47:03

    Sounds good.

    Mark Ort:

    47:04-47:07

    All right, and any of these other questions, I wasn't sure what was going on.

    Mark Ort:

    47:07-47:08

    But that's why we have Mark.

    Mark Ort:

    47:09-47:11

    Mark, why don't you pray for us and thank you everyone for the questions.

    Mark Ort:

    47:14-47:17

    And you've had conversations with people about race and things.

    Mark Ort:

    47:17-47:18

    Invite them next week, right?

    Mark Ort:

    47:19-47:20

    And we'll set up more chairs if we need to.

    Pastor Jeff:

    47:21-47:23

    Yeah, absolutely, invite them, like seriously.

    Mark Ort:

    47:25-47:31

    Excellent, why don't you pray for us, Mark, and the worship team will come up and we'll close our time with a word of worship.

    Mark Ort:

    47:31-47:32

    All right,

    Pastor Jeff:

    47:32-47:32

    bow your heads, please.

    Pastor Jeff:

    47:33-47:37

    Thank you, Lord, for just a beautiful day, a beautiful Sunday morning.

    Pastor Jeff:

    47:38-47:41

    You've been abundantly kind to us.

    Pastor Jeff:

    47:41-47:50

    You've been good to us, not just with the weather and how you provide for us and things like that, but you've been good in every other way.

    Pastor Jeff:

    47:52-48:05

    You've planted within us your word and you've given us friends that care about us and you've given us a certain amount of stability and we thank you for our health.

    Pastor Jeff:

    48:05-48:11

    And we are grateful for all of these things, our homes and our food.

    Pastor Jeff:

    48:11-48:15

    And Lord, thank you for all of that.

    Pastor Jeff:

    48:17-48:26

    But we thank you most of all for the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from all of our unrighteousness, that takes away the guilt and the stain of our sin.

    Pastor Jeff:

    48:27-48:33

    We stand here today, Lord, as those who know you, as people who stand in grace.

    Pastor Jeff:

    48:33-48:38

    And we are so grateful for that this morning and we never wanna take that for granted.

    Pastor Jeff:

    48:40-48:57

    We thank you that we are back in church and worshiping with one another and hearing from your word together and seeing each other's smiles and sharing each other's victories and hurts and things like that in this corporate setting.

    Pastor Jeff:

    48:57-49:03

    And Lord, I thank you for a group of like-minded believers who love one another.

    Pastor Jeff:

    49:04-49:07

    And so Lord, we give you all the glory this morning.

    Pastor Jeff:

    49:08-49:24

    I thank you for Q&A day where we can just have a little bit of fun, where we can dig into your word and get answers to the things that puzzle us or things that confuse us.

    Pastor Jeff:

    49:24-49:31

    And Lord, I pray that this morning was a fruitful time for those in attendance and listening this morning.

    Pastor Jeff:

    49:33-49:35

    Again, Lord, we thank you for your goodness to us.

    Pastor Jeff:

    49:36-49:38

    And we pray these things in Jesus' name, amen.

Small Group Questions (Whole Group):

Review the questions submitted above. Discuss any of these that stuck out to you, or that maybe your group finds particularly interesting.

Breakout Questions:
Pray for one another!

Knowing Jesus - Knowing the One Who Gives Sight

Introduction:

Four Signs Your Spiritual Eyesight is 20/20: (John 9)

  1. You Obey Jesus, even when it doesn't make Sense . (John 9:1-7)
  2. You let the Facts determine your Opinion of Jesus. (John 9:8-17)
  3. You are an Unafraid Witness for Jesus. (John 9:18-34)
  1. You see Personal reasons to Worship Jesus. (John 9:35-41)

    Matthew 11:25 - At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children..."

Sermon Notes (PDF): BLANK
Hint:
Highlight blanks above for answers!

  • 00:14-00:18

    This is our last message in the book of John for a while.

    00:19-00:26

    In our series, "Knowing Jesus," today we're going to be looking at knowing the one who gives sight.

    00:28-00:30

    And here's the short version of the sermon.

    00:30-00:35

    You ready? If you're in a hurry, here's the short version.

    00:35-00:40

    "If you acknowledge your blindness before Jesus, He opens your eyes.

    00:40-00:47

    But if you persist on trying to live your life without Jesus, God will let you remain blind.

    00:48-00:49

    That's the short version.

    00:50-00:51

    Now here's the long one.

    00:53-00:54

    We're looking at John 9 today.

    00:55-00:57

    You're like, "Well, which verses?" All of them!

    00:57-01:00

    You're like, "We're looking at the whole chapter?" Yes, we are. We're going to get through it.

    01:00-01:02

    We're going to get through it together.

    01:03-01:07

    Like, "Why are we going through the whole chapter?" Well, the same reason I don't tell half a joke.

    01:08-01:13

    because the whole point of this chapter is based on Jesus' words at the end, spoiler alert.

    01:15-01:21

    But this chapter is about a miracle from Jesus, and the fallout from the miracle.

    01:21-01:26

    And I want to remind you that Jesus' miracles always had a purpose behind them.

    01:26-01:29

    Jesus didn't do random miracles.

    01:29-01:32

    They always had some deeper spiritual truth behind them.

    01:32-01:37

    For example, remember when Jesus fed the multitudes with the fish and the loaves?

    01:37-01:38

    There was a reason behind that.

    01:38-01:42

    It was to point out that you need the bread of life from God.

    01:43-01:46

    Right? That was the spiritual reason.

    01:48-01:49

    This story is no different.

    01:49-01:51

    This is a story of a blind man getting sight.

    01:52-01:56

    This is a story of seeing men losing their sight.

    01:58-02:00

    This is a story... here's the punchline.

    02:00-02:27

    Verse 39, "Jesus said, 'For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind." If you recognize that you are blind and you are helpless, and you cry out to God, "I need You!" He will grant you vision. He will let you see spiritually.

    02:30-02:40

    But if you think you can see, You're sitting here saying, "I don't need anyone, including Jesus." He's going to let you stay blind.

    02:43-02:48

    So today, I am your spiritual ophthalmologist.

    02:50-02:54

    All right? And God's Word is the eye test.

    02:55-02:55

    Are you ready?

    02:57-02:58

    Read the bottom line.

    02:59-02:59

    No, I'm just kidding.

    03:01-03:04

    It's not going to be the eye test in that way, but it is going to be the eye test.

    03:05-03:10

    And here's your outline today, four signs that your spiritual eyesight is 20/20.

    03:12-03:15

    Four signs that your spiritual eyesight is 20/20.

    03:16-03:17

    Number one, jot this down.

    03:18-03:21

    Here's a sign that you are able to spiritually see.

    03:21-03:25

    The first sign is you obey Jesus even when it doesn't make sense.

    03:28-03:32

    This chapter gives us insight into a question that we've all struggled with.

    03:33-03:35

    Why does God permit suffering?

    03:35-03:36

    Look at the first three verses.

    03:37-03:40

    It says, "As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.

    03:42-04:01

    And His disciples asked Him, 'Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?' Jesus answered, 'It was not that this man sinned or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him." Stop right there.

    04:01-04:16

    You see, the disciples would have been raised in a Jewish tradition that believes that if you had any kind of an injury, any kind of a disease, any kind of a handicap, any kind of hurt of any kind, it was always directly linked to sin.

    04:17-04:19

    And Jesus didn't deny that.

    04:20-04:23

    Hurt is absolutely the result of sin.

    04:26-04:28

    But it's just not connected in the way that people think that it is.

    04:31-04:34

    You see, we live in a fallen and cursed world.

    04:36-04:41

    And somehow, even though we know that's what the Bible says, we go about our lives expecting things to be perfect.

    04:42-04:44

    They are not going to be perfect in this world.

    04:45-04:51

    This world is not what it was when God created it, And it's not what it will be when Jesus makes all things new.

    04:52-04:54

    Today, hurt is a reality.

    04:55-04:56

    Okay? It just is.

    04:57-04:58

    I wish it wasn't.

    04:59-05:01

    It is. Hurt is a reality.

    05:02-05:11

    In the chapter of history that we live in, it's the result of the presence of sin.

    05:11-05:12

    Okay?

    05:12-05:16

    We are fallen people, we live in a fallen world, the world's under a curse, that's why there's hurt.

    05:17-05:18

    But here's the thing.

    05:19-05:24

    Hurt is not always the result of personal sin.

    05:25-05:26

    Sometimes it is.

    05:27-05:37

    What I mean is, it's not always, "Well, that guy got hurt because he's a bad person." But that's what a lot of people taught and believed in 1st century Judaism.

    05:38-05:43

    That if you had a handicap or an injury or something, that God just put the whammy on you.

    05:43-05:45

    Because of a sin that you committed.

    05:48-05:54

    And obviously that's not the case here, because this man was born blind, right?

    05:54-05:57

    He was born with this condition.

    05:58-06:18

    So that's what prompted the disciples to ask, "Wait a second, if he was born with it, then how did sin come into play here?" Well, Jesus tells us, He says it's so that the work of God would manifest.

    06:21-06:24

    This isn't just a whole other sermon, this is a whole other sermon series.

    06:24-06:33

    Do you realize so much suffering, the purpose that God allows it, is so that He has opportunity to show up and do something awesome?

    06:34-06:36

    That's why a lot of suffering exists.

    06:38-06:42

    You're not going to know God as a healer until there's a sickness, right?

    06:42-06:48

    You're not going to know God as a Savior until you're in some kind of a situation where you need save.

    06:48-06:53

    So there's so much suffering, and so God has an opportunity to do something that will blow your minds.

    06:53-06:55

    And that was the case with this guy here.

    06:56-06:57

    And that's what Jesus was pointing out.

    06:58-06:59

    Look at verse 4.

    07:00-07:04

    Jesus said, "We must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day.

    07:05-07:07

    Night is coming when no one can work.

    07:07-07:17

    as long as I'm in the world, I am the light of the world." Having said these things, he spat on the ground and made mud with the saliva.

    07:19-07:30

    Then he anointed the man's eyes with the mud and said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam," which means "send." So he went and washed and came back seeing.

    07:33-07:36

    You know, it's hard to make sense of suffering, right?

    07:37-07:41

    You know what's even harder for me is to make sense of why Jesus did the miracle the way that He did.

    07:42-07:46

    Now, we're probably familiar with this story, most of us.

    07:48-07:52

    But could you try to imagine this story from the blind man's perspective for a second?

    07:53-07:57

    Okay, you're sitting there, you're blind, you're born blind, this is what you do every day of your life.

    07:57-07:59

    He's probably a young man, we'll see why in a second.

    08:00-08:04

    He's sitting there and all of a sudden, Jesus and His disciples come walking along.

    08:05-08:10

    I have to imagine the blind man, he's not seeing it, but I wonder if he's hearing from other people what's going on.

    08:10-08:17

    Like, "Well, who's coming?" "Oh, it's Jesus. People say he's the Messiah.

    08:17-08:34

    Some people think he's a joker, whatever." "Oh, well, what's Jesus doing?" "He just spit a giant mouthful of spit on the ground." Oh, now what's he doing?

    08:39-08:40

    You're not gonna believe this.

    08:41-08:47

    He spit on the ground and he picked up the dirt where he spit.

    08:49-08:49

    Well, that's kind of gross.

    08:50-08:50

    Now what's he doing?

    08:51-08:53

    He's rubbing it in his hands.

    08:55-08:58

    Okay, okay, this is very strange.

    08:58-08:59

    Now what's he doing?

    09:01-09:07

    "Looks like he's about to rub it in your eyes." I mean, can anybody else wrap their brain around, like, what was this guy thinking?

    09:08-09:11

    He's just gonna show up and rub spitting dirt in my eyes?

    09:13-09:14

    Apparently this guy didn't object.

    09:15-09:18

    I would hate to think that this was a normal thing for him.

    09:22-09:23

    Right?

    09:24-09:24

    Right?

    09:27-09:32

    Okay, so, and he doesn't know, really know Jesus yet at this point, right?

    09:32-09:46

    So a guy shows up, spits in the ground, makes mud, rubs it in his eyes, and says, "Okay, I'll go wash in the pool." I'd be like, "You'll fly a kite!" That's not what he did.

    09:48-09:51

    The Bible says he went and did what Jesus told him to do.

    09:51-09:53

    Now, he wasn't healed instantly. That's something else that blows my mind.

    09:54-09:56

    Jesus tells him to wash. He was still blind, apparently.

    09:56-10:04

    Apparently he didn't get his eyesight until he went and washed in the pool where Jesus told him to wash.

    10:05-10:10

    He had to listen to Jesus' command and do what Jesus told him to do.

    10:12-10:28

    So I have to ask myself, what if when Jesus came and did the thing, what if this man just dismissed Jesus as crazy mud spit guy He didn't do what Jesus told him to do.

    10:29-10:31

    Hypothetically, what if that would have happened?

    10:32-10:45

    Jesus rubs the dirt in his eyes and says, "Go wash." And the guy's like, "No, I don't know who you are. Beat it." Would the guy have gotten his eyesight back?

    10:47-10:51

    I know it's hypothetical, but from the best I can see from the passage, no.

    10:53-10:57

    didn't get his eyesight until he did what Jesus told him to do.

    10:58-10:59

    Right?

    11:00-11:03

    But this is where a lot of people fail to get out of the gate.

    11:04-11:06

    They want to try to make sense of the Bible.

    11:07-11:12

    I'll believe it if it makes sense, or when it makes sense, or when I can make sense of it.

    11:12-11:15

    And I'm here to tell you this morning, write this down.

    11:15-11:17

    Faith does not make sense.

    11:17-11:18

    Ever!

    11:19-11:20

    It does not make sense.

    11:22-11:23

    Faith does not make sense.

    11:25-11:34

    I'm not saying that our faith isn't reasonable or sensible because it's based on an objective truth grounded and rooted in history.

    11:34-11:35

    Absolutely.

    11:35-11:41

    But when God tells you to do something, it doesn't make sense.

    11:43-11:43

    Every time.

    11:45-11:47

    Faith does not make human sense.

    11:48-11:49

    Let me give you an example.

    11:50-11:51

    Talk about money.

    11:53-11:57

    In case you hadn't noticed, we've sort of been going through this pandemic thing, right?

    11:58-11:59

    Anybody notice that?

    12:02-12:02

    Economic collapse.

    12:04-12:08

    You know what the elders of this church did during the economic collapse?

    12:08-12:10

    You know what the elders of this church did?

    12:10-12:16

    The elders of this church sent almost $8,000 to Nepal to feed starving Christians in Nepal.

    12:17-12:22

    It was like $7,800, I think, if we're going to be exact.

    12:25-12:29

    But some would say, "That doesn't make any sense.

    12:29-12:37

    We're not going to have any money if we give the money that we have away." But you know what God said?

    12:39-12:49

    God said if we give the money away to Him in His name, He gives back even more so that we have more to give to Him.

    12:49-12:52

    That doesn't make any sense at all.

    12:55-12:59

    But that's what the owners of this church really believed God was calling us to do.

    13:00-13:01

    So that's what happened.

    13:02-13:04

    It doesn't make sense. Do you know what else doesn't make sense?

    13:04-13:05

    I was talking to our treasurer.

    13:06-13:09

    The biggest month of giving for our church, do you know what it was?

    13:11-13:11

    March.

    13:12-13:13

    And I don't mean by pennies.

    13:14-13:19

    I mean exponentially higher than every other month of giving.

    13:20-13:27

    What sense does that make during a pandemic, when people are losing businesses and jobs and got to save some for rainy days?

    13:27-13:28

    It makes zero sense.

    13:28-13:30

    You know what the second highest giving month was?

    13:30-13:31

    You want to guess?

    13:32-13:32

    April!

    13:34-13:35

    [applause]

    13:40-13:42

    That doesn't make sense.

    13:44-13:46

    But our treasure is here. You can go ask Him.

    13:46-13:48

    You can see the numbers. It makes zero sense.

    13:49-13:59

    But God says when you give to Him, He'll give back to you, and He'll give you even more so that you can give more to Him, and He'll keep the cycle going, and that's what our church experienced.

    14:00-14:10

    Now my question is, would our church have had such huge months of giving If we didn't give so much money away, I don't think we would have.

    14:12-14:13

    I really don't think we would have.

    14:17-14:24

    But this is true for the church, this was certainly true for the blind man, and I want to tell you today it's true for you as well.

    14:27-14:37

    In any area, whether it's money or whatever, any area where Jesus gives a command, You just got to do it, even if it doesn't make sense.

    14:39-14:46

    Then you're going to see that when you look back, just doing what Jesus tells you to do is the only thing that really does make sense.

    14:48-14:50

    And only then will you really see the blessing, right?

    14:50-14:53

    2020, like this guy.

    14:53-14:55

    Obey Jesus even when it doesn't make sense.

    14:55-15:01

    Secondly, four signs your spiritual eyesight is 20/20.

    15:01-15:06

    Secondly, you let the facts determine your opinion of Jesus.

    15:07-15:10

    Okay? Let the facts determine your opinion.

    15:11-15:11

    Look at verse 8.

    15:14-15:33

    It says, "The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar were saying, 'Is this not the man who used to sit and beg?' Some said, 'It is he.' Others said, 'No, but he is like him.' He kept saying, "I am the man." That's so funny, you just got to admit, that's hilarious.

    15:34-15:57

    Everybody's like, "Is this the guy? Is this the guy? That's him. That's not him." The whole time he's sitting there going, "It was me. It was me. It was me. It was me. It was me." And they're like, "Is it him? Is it him?" And he's like, "Yes, it was me! But I'm not sure. Was that him?" "Ugh! Ugh! Now I wish I was deaf." He didn't say that.

    16:00-16:01

    That would be funny.

    16:01-16:35

    So they said to him, "How were your eyes opened?" He answered, "The man called Jesus made mud and anointed my eyes, and said to me, 'Go to Siloam and wash.' So I went and washed and received my sight." They said to him, "Where is he?" He said, "I do not know." They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind, stopped there, such reluctance to believe it happened.

    16:37-16:40

    And at this point, apparently all the man knew was Jesus' name.

    16:40-16:42

    But there's a huge problem here.

    16:45-16:53

    You're going to see the Pharisees were livid Because all of this happened on the Sabbath.

    16:54-16:55

    Look at verse 14.

    16:57-17:01

    It says, "Now it was a Sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes.

    17:02-17:05

    So the Pharisees again asked Him how He had received His sight.

    17:05-17:26

    And He said to them, 'He put mud on My eyes, and I washed, and I see.' Some of the Pharisees said, 'This man is not from God, "For he does not keep the Sabbath." But others said, "How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?" And there was division among them.

    17:28-17:34

    We kind of laughed a little bit about Jesus spitting on the ground and wiping the mud in his eyes.

    17:35-17:36

    There is a reason he did that.

    17:38-17:43

    Could Jesus have just said, "You can see now," and the lights came on?

    17:43-17:44

    Could Jesus have done it that way?

    17:45-17:46

    Absolutely, He could have done it that way.

    17:47-17:49

    So why did Jesus go through all the...

    17:50-17:51

    Why did He go through all that?

    17:55-18:07

    It was like Jesus was trying to break as many of their man-made rules as He could in one act.

    18:07-18:08

    That's what this is like.

    18:12-18:24

    God said, "Don't work in the Sabbath." The Jews made hundreds and hundreds of rules that were meant to help you keep the Sabbath, and they believed you were spiritual based on how well you kept these rules, and that's why they were so mad at Jesus.

    18:25-18:33

    But it was almost like Jesus was like, "Let's see with one act how many of their rules I can break." First of all, he spit on the ground.

    18:33-18:37

    And did you know that was prohibited on the Sabbath by their man-made rules?

    18:37-18:40

    Because spitting on the ground is considered work.

    18:40-18:41

    Do you know why it's considered work?

    18:42-18:47

    if your loogie hits dirt and it moves the dirt, that's considered plowing.

    18:48-18:49

    And you just... I'm serious.

    18:50-18:51

    And you just worked on the Sabbath.

    18:53-18:55

    So they had a rule again, I'm not making this up, you can look this up.

    18:55-19:01

    You were allowed to spit on a rock on the Sabbath, but you were not allowed to spit on the dirt, because that's considered plowing.

    19:03-19:08

    Secondly, the rule that Jesus broke, you were not allowed to heal on the Sabbath.

    19:10-19:10

    Again, look this up.

    19:10-19:20

    If you broke your leg on the Sabbath, you couldn't do anything to make it better, but you could do things to keep it from getting worse, okay?

    19:22-19:25

    So basically, just sit on the couch till Sunday, right?

    19:27-19:31

    So you spit on the ground, you weren't allowed to heal, and here's the third thing.

    19:34-19:36

    Spit was considered medicine.

    19:39-19:40

    I don't know either, okay?

    19:41-19:42

    You tell me and we'll both know.

    19:43-19:44

    But spit was considered medicine.

    19:44-19:51

    You were not allowed to use medicine on the Sabbath, and they considered spit to be medicinal.

    19:51-19:57

    So this was their reason for rejecting Jesus and this miracle.

    19:57-20:02

    But for some, they were saying, "Well, God really seems to be endorsing this stuff." And there was this huge division.

    20:04-20:21

    Verse 17, "So they said again to the blind man, 'What do you say about him, since he has opened your eyes?' He said, 'He is a prophet.'" The man's faith and understanding were developing.

    20:23-20:26

    Now Jesus wasn't just some random guy walking by.

    20:27-20:29

    No, he must be a prophet.

    20:32-20:34

    You know, church, we live in a day more than ever.

    20:35-20:37

    People aren't interested in facts.

    20:37-20:38

    You notice that?

    20:40-20:42

    It's all about how I feel.

    20:46-20:47

    Take politics, for example.

    20:50-20:54

    We're talking both sides, whatever political stripe you are, whatever.

    20:54-20:56

    We're not taking sides here.

    20:56-20:58

    I just want you to look at the issue as a whole.

    20:59-21:00

    Can we be mature enough to do that?

    21:01-21:03

    Okay, let's look at politics.

    21:04-21:09

    Fake news from both sides, whatever, Fox News, CNN, fake news from both sides.

    21:11-21:17

    You notice people let their opinions determine what they believe are facts.

    21:17-21:18

    You notice that?

    21:19-21:20

    Here's what I mean.

    21:21-21:26

    If you love Donald Trump, you believe everything good that you hear about him.

    21:27-21:30

    And if something bad is said about him, that can't be true.

    21:33-21:34

    Same with Obama, right?

    21:34-21:41

    If you're an Obama fan, everything that was said about him that was favorable, you're like, that has to be true.

    21:42-21:47

    And everything that was said negative, if you hate Obama, everything negative said about him, you're like, well, that can't be true.

    21:49-21:50

    You get the point.

    21:52-21:55

    You base your facts on whatever your opinion is.

    21:57-21:59

    I'll believe every positive thing about Trump if I like him.

    22:00-22:03

    I'll believe every positive thing about Obama if I like him.

    22:06-22:09

    I'll believe every negative thing about him if I hate him, either one.

    22:11-22:26

    But very few people objectively are honest enough to say, I'm going to look at all the facts, I'm going to check the facts, and I'm to determine my opinion based on the facts.

    22:28-22:30

    Now, I don't really care about your political views.

    22:32-22:38

    What I do care is when your opinion of Jesus is not based on facts.

    22:39-22:40

    That's what I care about.

    22:40-22:43

    And that's why we're going through this whole "Knowing Jesus" series.

    22:44-22:46

    That's why we're walking through John's Gospel.

    22:47-22:50

    Because too many people out there have a twisted opinion about Jesus.

    22:52-22:57

    despite what the Bible actually says about him, and that was the Pharisees' problem.

    22:57-22:58

    You see, they already hated Jesus.

    22:59-23:05

    And everything they could gather to reinforce that hate just fueled that.

    23:07-23:12

    That's why in verse 17, again, this is almost laughable.

    23:15-23:16

    I wouldn't say almost, this is laughable.

    23:17-23:19

    Here's a guy that was born blind, never saw a day in his life.

    23:19-23:28

    Jesus shows up, the man sees, And the Pharisees go to him and say, verse 17, "What do you say about him?" "What do I say about him?

    23:29-23:32

    I was sitting here blind for my entire life and he opened my eyes.

    23:32-23:33

    What do I say about him?

    23:33-23:34

    I think he's awesome!

    23:35-23:36

    That's what I say about him.

    23:36-23:38

    Like, what kind of a stupid question is that?

    23:39-23:40

    Like, I don't really know.

    23:40-23:42

    I mean, he did do it on the Sabbath.

    23:42-23:45

    Like, what did they expect him to say?

    23:46-23:48

    It's just, it's idiotic.

    23:48-23:49

    What do you say about him?

    23:50-23:51

    What do you think?

    23:53-23:56

    What do you say about the man who brings you ice cream?

    23:57-23:58

    What do you say about him?

    24:00-24:00

    He's awesome!

    24:03-24:15

    That's been my goal with this series, is to simply present the facts, that's knowing about Jesus, and encourage you to let the facts determine your opinion of Jesus.

    24:16-24:19

    to go from knowing about Jesus that will lead you to want to know Jesus.

    24:20-24:23

    And your spiritual eyesight is going to be 20/20.

    24:25-24:30

    If you let the facts about Jesus determine how you feel about Jesus.

    24:32-24:36

    Number three, four signs your spiritual eyesight is 20/20.

    24:36-24:39

    Number three, you are an unafraid witness for Jesus.

    24:43-24:44

    in verse 18.

    24:47-24:51

    "The Jews did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight.

    24:52-24:57

    So they called the parents of the man who had received his sight." Again, it must have been a young man.

    24:58-25:00

    Like, "We don't believe you, little boy.

    25:00-25:08

    We're going to call your parents." "And asked them, 'Is this your son who you say was born blind?

    25:08-25:15

    How then does he now see?' His parents answered, "We know that this is our Son, and that He was born blind.

    25:16-25:20

    But how He now sees we do not know, nor do we know who opened His eyes.

    25:22-25:23

    Ask Him." He's of age.

    25:24-25:25

    He will speak for Himself.

    25:25-25:28

    His parents said these things because they feared the Jews.

    25:29-25:33

    The Jews had already agreed that if anyone should confess Jesus to be Christ, He would be put out of the synagogue.

    25:34-25:43

    Therefore His parents said, "He's of age. Ask Him." So for the second time, called the man who had been blind and said to him, "Give glory to God.

    25:44-25:47

    We know that this man is a sinner." Stop there.

    25:48-25:54

    "Give glory to God." What they meant was, that was kind of their vernacular in our day.

    25:54-26:00

    We say, "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?" That was their way of saying that.

    26:00-26:10

    Like, look, you better say the absolute truth for Almighty God right now. Right? That's what that meant.

    26:10-26:18

    Verse 25, "He answered, 'Whether he is a sinner I do not know.

    26:18-26:27

    One thing I do know, that the heart was blind. Now I see.'" This man wasn't looking to get into a theological debate about Jesus.

    26:29-26:32

    Side note, this is just a powerful witnessing tool.

    26:32-26:34

    Just tell how Jesus changed you.

    26:35-26:40

    If you're looking for how to witness to someone, just tell them how Jesus changed you.

    26:41-26:54

    So many people are afraid to witness because, "What if they ask me this question?" Look, there's one thing you know better than anybody else on the planet, and that's your life story. You know that better than anybody.

    26:54-26:58

    So when you share Christ, just tell people what Christ has done to you.

    26:58-26:59

    And that's what this man did.

    26:59-27:04

    Like, look, you're asking me all these theological questions, I don't really know anything about that. Here's what I do know.

    27:05-27:11

    I was sitting there blind one minute, and I'm walking around seeing the next, and the difference was Jesus Christ.

    27:14-27:15

    Look at verse 26.

    27:18-27:21

    "But I said to him, 'What did He do to you?

    27:23-27:32

    How did He open your eyes?' He answered them, 'I've told you already, and you would not listen.'" Why do you want to hear it again?

    27:33-27:39

    "You also want to become His disciples." Yeah, that was it.

    27:42-27:42

    Nailed it.

    27:43-27:44

    He was being sarcastic.

    27:44-27:45

    I think we all caught that, right?

    27:47-27:48

    And they reviled Him.

    27:48-27:48

    Oh, they got it.

    27:50-27:55

    They reviled Him, saying, "You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.

    27:55-28:11

    We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, "You do not know where he comes from." If you're keeping track, that's four times in this passage the man was asked how he was able to see.

    28:12-28:12

    Four times.

    28:13-28:16

    Verse 10, verse 15, verse 19, verse 26.

    28:16-28:21

    "How'd this happen? How'd this happen? How'd this happen? How'd this happen?" How many more times is he going to be asked?

    28:23-28:25

    Why do they keep asking him how?

    28:27-28:38

    I believe they wanted the man to say, "Well, Jesus spit, and He made mud, and He rubbed my eyes." And they're like, "Oh, so we have the testimony that He violated the Sabbath.

    28:38-28:45

    Testimony right here! We have an eyewitness. He violated the Sabbath." I think that's why they kept asking him.

    28:47-28:49

    But they made a huge mistake here.

    28:51-28:51

    Did you catch it?

    28:52-28:55

    They admitted for something they did not know.

    28:56-28:59

    The man pounced on it. Look at verse 30.

    29:01-29:04

    The man answered, "Why, this is an amazing thing!

    29:04-29:07

    You do not know where he comes from!" And yet he opened my eyes.

    29:07-29:13

    We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, God listens to him.

    29:16-29:36

    He's like, "Well, I got you now, because you started a line of debate that you can't get out of." Verse 32, the man says, "Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind." If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.

    29:36-29:39

    And do you see the guy's faith is developing even more.

    29:39-29:47

    He went from, "He's a prophet," to now he's like, "He's straight from God." See, his faith is growing, faith is developing.

    29:48-29:58

    Verse 34, "They answered him, 'You were born in utter sin, and you would teach us." And they cast him out.

    30:00-30:02

    That's what you call sore losers.

    30:03-30:04

    Right?

    30:05-30:06

    They're done with facts.

    30:06-30:07

    They're done with facts.

    30:09-30:15

    Just like they did with Jesus, when you didn't win the argument, you resort to a personal attack, right?

    30:16-30:32

    And when they lost the argument with this guy, they're like, "Oh, you were born as a rotten sinner, "You're going to teach us religiously." But the man was like, "Guys, you totally missed it.

    30:33-30:35

    No one has ever done anything like this.

    30:39-30:45

    You guys were just here to witness the greatest miracle ever." And I'm sure this guy thought this was the greatest miracle ever.

    30:46-30:53

    And you just witnessed the greatest miracle ever, and all you want to do is write it off as a Sabbath violation.

    30:56-31:03

    It would be like a woman rejecting a diamond ring because it came in a plastic box.

    31:05-31:08

    Like, wow, you are so missing everything.

    31:11-31:13

    So in this passage here we have quite a contrast.

    31:14-31:20

    We hear from the man's parents, who didn't know anything, why don't you ask him? He's old enough.

    31:21-31:23

    Go from that to this man's boldness.

    31:25-31:36

    Again, when it comes to witnessing, so many people are afraid, and so many, even people that call themselves Christians, end up just like the parents here.

    31:39-31:42

    When it comes time to share your faith, you say, "You know what, I don't really know what to say.

    31:43-31:45

    I'd rather not talk about Jesus, can you go ask somebody else?

    31:48-31:50

    And hey, I can teach you how to share the gospel.

    31:50-31:52

    I can teach you how to give your testimony.

    31:52-31:58

    I have a stack of books in my office all about witnessing, personal evangelism.

    31:58-32:02

    I can guilt you into trying to witness, but it's ineffective.

    32:05-32:10

    If your witnessing just becomes a mechanical spouting of information.

    32:13-32:15

    I'll tell you who the best witness is.

    32:17-32:19

    The best witness in the world is somebody like this guy right here.

    32:22-32:25

    Somebody who's had a radical, life-changing encounter with Jesus Christ.

    32:25-32:30

    Somebody who has a story to tell, and is unafraid to tell it.

    32:30-32:33

    You find that guy, you're not going to shut him up.

    32:35-32:38

    He doesn't need coerced into witnessing.

    32:41-32:46

    Maybe you don't witness, because you don't have a testament.

    32:48-32:53

    Because maybe deep down, you realize that you're more like the parents in this story after all.

    32:54-33:00

    Jesus didn't really change me, but I know somebody that He did change, and you should go talk to Him about it.

    33:02-33:11

    Because here's reality, If you're anything like this guy, transformed by Jesus, you don't need motivation to talk about Him.

    33:12-33:15

    You don't need a pep talk for the courage to talk about Him.

    33:17-33:20

    You just simply see who He is, and you're not afraid to tell people what He can do.

    33:21-33:21

    That's it.

    33:23-33:25

    So that's a sign that your spiritual eyesight is 20/20.

    33:26-33:27

    You're an unafraid witness.

    33:28-33:36

    And finally, number four, your spiritual eyesight is 20/20, is you see personal reasons to worship Jesus.

    33:38-33:40

    You see personal reasons to worship Jesus.

    33:43-34:06

    Verse 35, "Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him, he said, 'Do you believe in the Son of Man?' He answered, 'And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?' Jesus said to him, "You have seen Him, and it is He who is speaking to you." He said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshipped Him.

    34:09-34:15

    I think it's just awesome that Jesus found him.

    34:16-34:20

    I would think that the guy would be looking for Jesus who opened his eyes.

    34:20-34:26

    Like, "I'm not leaving until I find him again." Jesus tracked him down. Did you see that?

    34:28-34:30

    Because Jesus wasn't done with him.

    34:30-34:36

    Just like Jesus opened his physical eyes, right here Jesus opened his spiritual eyes.

    34:38-34:43

    Verse 39, Jesus said, and here's the punchline, here's the purpose of this whole story.

    34:46-35:00

    Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind." This is a teaching throughout the Bible.

    35:02-35:06

    God will exalt the humble, and He will humble the self-exalted every time.

    35:07-35:21

    Matthew 11.25, Jesus said it this way, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding, and revealed them to little children.

    35:23-35:24

    That's what God does.

    35:25-35:27

    If you're willing to humble yourself, God exalts you.

    35:28-35:32

    But if you exalt yourself, God will knock you down.

    35:34-35:39

    Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world." You're like, "Wait a second. Hang on a second.

    35:39-35:41

    I thought Jesus didn't come to judge.

    35:41-35:53

    Isn't that what we covered back in John 3?" Yeah. But understand here that this was self-condemnation that we're dealing with here.

    35:54-35:57

    Jesus didn't judge these people.

    35:58-35:59

    They were judging themselves.

    36:01-36:06

    Because they were looking right at Jesus and didn't see anything desirable in Him.

    36:06-36:11

    They were looking at the Son of God and saw no compelling reason to follow Him.

    36:12-36:13

    Self-condemnation.

    36:15-36:28

    Verse 40, "Some of the Pharisees near Him heard these things and said to Him, 'Are we also blind?' Jesus said to them, 'If you were blind, you would have no guilt.

    36:29-36:40

    But now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains.'" They get that Jesus was using a metaphor.

    36:43-36:45

    But they refuse to admit their blindness.

    36:46-36:47

    Are you calling us blind?

    36:50-37:00

    Jesus here basically was saying, "You're guilty because you're not ignorant." You aren't even claiming ignorance.

    37:00-37:08

    You're walking around saying that you're able to see, but in your pride, you willfully refuse You spiritually see me for who I am.

    37:09-37:17

    You know the Scriptures, you watch me work, and you refuse to believe in me, all the while claiming that you are the enlightened ones, that you can see.

    37:18-37:19

    That's what Jesus was saying to them.

    37:22-37:28

    But notice that while they kept trying to argue, what was the formerly blind man doing?

    37:29-37:32

    Verse 38, it says he worshipped.

    37:35-37:37

    and how his faith matured throughout the chapter.

    37:39-37:50

    Went from, "He's a prophet!" to, "He's from God!" to, "He is God, and I'm going to worship Him." This man had reasons to worship.

    37:52-37:57

    He realized who Jesus is, and he was grateful for what he received from Jesus.

    38:00-38:01

    Can you say that?

    38:04-38:06

    Can you say that? I can't help but worship Jesus.

    38:06-38:08

    To me, this is very personal.

    38:08-38:11

    I don't just worship because I know about Jesus.

    38:12-38:13

    He's the Lord of the universe.

    38:13-38:15

    I mean, that's true, and that is a reason.

    38:15-38:18

    But I worship because I know Jesus.

    38:18-38:21

    I have personally experienced His goodness.

    38:24-38:28

    The salvation that He's offered through His death on the cross, I've received that gift.

    38:29-38:31

    So worship is a very personal thing for me.

    38:32-38:32

    Can you say that?

    38:35-38:41

    When you can, your spiritual vision is 20/20.

    38:44-38:51

    People say this phrase all the time, "Oh, you had to see it to believe it." Have you ever used that phrase?

    38:51-38:54

    I used that phrase a lot over the last week.

    38:55-38:56

    Let me tell you why real quick.

    38:57-39:00

    You did it. You get a sticker for going through the whole chapter today.

    39:00-39:08

    But last weekend, I use this phrase, "You had to see it to believe it." "You had to see it to believe it." I use that phrase so many times.

    39:09-39:12

    Because last weekend was crazy.

    39:12-39:24

    We went to the Thompsons' house for a free back-to-church party with some small groups, and there was a wild turkey just hanging out.

    39:24-39:25

    Right Dan?

    39:26-39:27

    There was a wild turkey.

    39:27-39:39

    I mean, it was like playing with the kids, and like Ross Howes was holding it, and Cade's like, "Can I hold it?" My son Cade was like, "Can I hold it?" And Ross is like, "Sure." And Cade had this turkey perched on his arm.

    39:40-39:43

    And I had pictures of this, and I said, "You look like the world's poorest pirate."

    39:44-39:44

    [laughter]

    39:46-39:51

    And I kid you not, Dan has this fire pit, and he has these stumps around the fire pit.

    39:51-39:55

    We're all sitting around the fire, and the turkey is sitting on a stump!

    39:55-39:57

    with us, a wild turkey.

    39:58-40:00

    And I have pictures, I don't know if my phone's in my office.

    40:01-40:02

    I have pictures, he's sleeping.

    40:05-40:06

    You had to see it to believe it.

    40:07-40:09

    Like we hung out with a wild turkey.

    40:09-40:19

    And then the next day, we were out at my in-laws, we were riding the side by side through the woods and we stopped at this one place where Aaron's mother actually grew up.

    40:19-40:23

    She goes, "I'm gonna show you." It was like deep in the middle of the forestry.

    40:23-40:28

    And as we're walking on the path, there was a fawn right there!

    40:29-40:34

    I mean, I could have literally bent over and picked the thing up, and it was just like completely not moving.

    40:35-40:37

    It wasn't injured, it wasn't sick, it wasn't dead.

    40:38-40:39

    It thought it was camouflaging.

    40:40-40:41

    And it was right there.

    40:44-40:56

    And I'm like, "Man, you had to see it to believe it." And you know, there's so much - I could keep going, but I'm not - You see it to believe it. You had to see it to believe it.

    40:56-41:01

    But listen, church, when it comes to spiritual sights, the exact opposite is true.

    41:03-41:05

    You have to believe it to see it.

    41:08-41:08

    Do you see?

    41:11-41:12

    Can you see?

    41:13-41:14

    Let's pray.

    41:15-41:19

    Father in heaven, we are all born blind spiritually.

    41:21-41:30

    And thank You that the light of the world has come to give eyesight to people who are humble enough to admit that they're helpless.

    41:31-41:40

    To people that are humble enough to obey the simple commands to believe and follow Jesus Christ.

    41:44-41:46

    Father, I pray for those sitting here.

    41:46-41:52

    I pray for those listening online, watching this streaming.

    41:53-41:54

    We're going to be listening to this podcast later.

    41:58-42:04

    Father, I pray that we would see ourselves like the blind man in desperate need of an encounter with Jesus.

    42:06-42:13

    You would open our eyes to the fear like the parents had or the arrogance like the Pharisees had.

    42:16-42:17

    Bring us to the place of repentance, Father.

    42:20-42:22

    Thank You God that You're in the business of opening eyes.

    42:23-42:24

    Open ours.

    42:25-42:27

    We pray in Jesus' name, Amen.

Small Group Discussion
Read John 9

  1. What was your big “take-away” from this passage / message?

  2. Would the man have been healed if he didn’t go wash in the pool (John 9:7)? Why do you think Jesus healed the man this way, instead of just healing him “instantly”?

  3. Their opinions ignored the facts (John 9:24, 34). What are ways people do that in our day, especially regarding Jesus and the Bible?

  4. Why do you think people repeatedly asked the man HOW he was healed? See (John 9:10, 15, 19, 26).

  5. Explain John 9:39 in your own words. How do you reconcile these words with Jesus’ previous statement that He came not to judge (John 3:17-18).

Breakout
Pray for one another! And pray, by name, for someone you know who needs to invite Jesus to open their eyes.

Knowing Jesus - Knowing the I AM

Introduction:

Who Is Your Father? (John 8:39-59)

Freedom Comes from Abiding in God's Word. (John 8:31-32)

  1. It doesn't matter what you day, it matters what you Do . (John 8:39-44)

The Devil and His Kids:

  1. Live in Lries .
  2. Destroy Lives .
  1. It doesn't matter what you day, it matters who you Hear (John 8:45-54)

    John 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice...

  2. It doesn't matter what you day, it matters who you Know (John 8:55-59)

Sermon Notes (PDF): BLANK
Hint:
Highlight blanks above for answers!

  • 00:00-00:04

    Open your Bibles with me, please, to John 8.

    00:06-00:11

    And for those of you, again, who are watching online and are not yet able to join us, we're saving your seat.

    00:12-00:18

    And look forward to you being back with us live whenever you are comfortable doing so.

    00:19-00:20

    John 8.

    00:22-00:36

    We're going through this series called "Knowing Jesus," and today's message is "Knowing the I Am." And I'm going to give you the short version of the message, and I'm going to give you the long version of the message, and I'm going to give you the option, whichever one you like.

    00:36-00:38

    If you want to leave after the short version, you can do that.

    00:39-00:42

    If you want to stay for the long version, you can do that as well.

    00:42-00:44

    Here's the short version of the sermon today. You ready?

    00:46-00:55

    Jesus said that the way you live reveals if God is your Father, or if the devil is your Father.

    00:56-00:59

    It doesn't matter what you say, it's how you live, according to Jesus.

    01:00-01:01

    That's the short version.

    01:02-01:03

    And if you need to go now, you are loved.

    01:04-01:09

    But if you're like, "Man, I need to hear "a little bit more about this," here's the longer version.

    01:09-01:10

    You ready?

    01:10-01:12

    We all act like our fathers.

    01:12-01:15

    Now look, I'm speaking primarily to guys here, I get that.

    01:16-01:26

    Because with my wife present, I dare not say something like, "You ladies act just like your mother." I wouldn't say something like that unless it was a total compliment.

    01:27-01:32

    But for the guys, especially here, I'm going to say it again.

    01:33-01:34

    We act like our fathers.

    01:35-01:39

    And you might want to deny that, but you'd be wrong.

    01:39-01:40

    You're no exception.

    01:40-01:42

    We act just like our fathers.

    01:42-01:46

    Did you ever, guys, guys, did you ever catch yourself acting like your dad?

    01:46-01:50

    If you're a show of hands, men especially, you ever caught yourself acting like your dad?

    01:50-01:51

    I have.

    01:52-01:59

    I've caught myself so many times saying things that I heard my father say, and I didn't realize it until it was just out of my mouth.

    01:59-02:02

    Things like, and I know, Darren, you're gonna resonate with this.

    02:02-02:05

    One thing our dad always said was, "Who left the lights on?

    02:06-02:09

    "I don't work for Wes Penn." Remember that?

    02:10-02:12

    He didn't, he was a banker.

    02:12-02:15

    And I catch myself saying that, like, "Who's leaving the lights on?

    02:15-02:37

    "I don't work for the power company." Something else I've heard my dad say that I hear him say again as it comes out of my mouth is when my teenage son tries to pull one over on me and I say, "How stupid do you think I am?" And it comes out of my mouth, I'm like, "That's what my dad said.

    02:37-02:53

    "He added some other colorful language in there "that I try not to use." Or when someone says something spiteful or wicked, something my dad always said was, "Jeff, you need to consider the source." I'll confess to you, when I was a kid, I had no idea what that meant.

    02:54-03:03

    But as an adult, I'm like, "I get that now. I get it. You've got to consider the source." I mean, my dad, I could go on and on and on.

    03:04-03:07

    But my dad would sing stupid songs.

    03:08-03:11

    My dad would take a chance on helping people.

    03:12-03:14

    My dad would baby his dogs.

    03:15-03:17

    And I find myself doing the same things.

    03:19-03:22

    Because we act like our fathers.

    03:24-03:31

    And this is a spiritual truth that Jesus is driving home in this passage.

    03:32-03:36

    And it comes from verse 38 where we left off last time.

    03:36-03:48

    Jesus said, "I speak of what I've seen with My Father, and you do what you heard from your Father." So Jesus said, "Hey, I'm talking about the things that I see from My Dad, you do what you learned from your dad.

    03:49-04:00

    And what you're going to see in this whole passage we're looking at today is Jesus is saying this, when it comes to your spiritual parentage, it doesn't matter what you say.

    04:01-04:01

    Okay?

    04:02-04:03

    It doesn't matter what you say.

    04:04-04:10

    Because what you're going to see in this passage is these men that Jesus was talking to, they said all the right things.

    04:11-04:13

    We're good Jews and God is our Father.

    04:13-04:17

    And they said all of the things that you would say in church.

    04:18-04:23

    But their hearts were so far from God, and Jesus called them out on that.

    04:23-04:32

    And as we open our hearts to the Word of God, maybe there's some of us sitting here or watching here or listening to this later that Jesus is going to call you out to.

    04:33-04:36

    So, on your outline, who is your Father?

    04:37-04:38

    Who is your Father?

    04:39-04:41

    Number one, it doesn't matter what you say.

    04:43-04:45

    It matters what you do.

    04:46-04:47

    Look at v. 39.

    04:48-05:02

    Again, in response to Jesus' statement in v. 38, they answered Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did.

    05:03-05:06

    But now you seek to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.

    05:08-05:09

    This is not what Abraham did.

    05:10-05:13

    You are doing the works your father did.

    05:13-05:17

    They said to him, "We were not born of sexual immorality.

    05:18-05:23

    We have one Father, even God." Stop right there.

    05:23-05:24

    Jesus called them out.

    05:24-05:29

    They said, "Hey, Abraham's our father." And Jesus said, "Oh, you think you act like Abraham.

    05:30-05:32

    Incorrect." Because do you know what Abraham did?

    05:33-05:38

    When God spoke to Abraham, Abraham actually listened and believed what God said.

    05:39-05:51

    Jesus said, "You have Abraham's blood, but you don't have his heart." Jesus said, "You're following your spiritual father." And in their response, they said, "Our spiritual father is God." Did you catch that?

    05:51-05:54

    They said, "We're not illegitimate children." You know what that was about?

    05:54-05:57

    That was an intentional dig.

    05:57-06:03

    There was a rumor going around because Jesus was born of Mary, but not Joseph, right?

    06:03-06:06

    Because conceived by the Holy Spirit.

    06:06-06:09

    There was a rumor going around was an illegitimate child.

    06:10-06:13

    And that was their way of sort of trying to slam them.

    06:14-06:18

    Like, "Oh, we're not illegitimate!" Like you?

    06:19-06:23

    And I love that they came at Him hard.

    06:23-06:25

    And Jesus didn't even respond to that.

    06:26-06:28

    Look at what He did say.

    06:29-06:35

    Verse 42, "Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love Me.

    06:37-06:39

    I came from God, and I am here.

    06:40-06:43

    I came not of my own accord, but He sent me.

    06:44-06:46

    Why do you not understand what I say?

    06:47-06:50

    It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.

    06:51-07:00

    You are of your father, the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires.

    07:00-07:08

    He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in Him.

    07:08-07:37

    When He lies, He speaks out of His own character, for He is a liar and the Father of lies." So Jesus here pulls back the veil, showing that there are spiritual realities, that there are invisible forces at work, that yes, there is a God who is alive and active in His people, but there's also a hater of humans behind the scenes, a murderer wants to destroy.

    07:38-07:39

    Jesus called him the devil.

    07:40-07:47

    And right now somebody's listening to this or watching this saying, oh, really, we're gonna talk about the devil?

    07:47-07:50

    I don't really believe in that devil stuff.

    07:50-07:51

    Hey, you know what?

    07:52-07:54

    Jesus did, all right?

    07:54-08:02

    So if I'm gonna go with what you believe about that or what Jesus believes about that, I'm going with Jesus, who's with me on that.

    08:03-08:08

    Jesus talked about the devil like the devil is a real person, right?

    08:09-08:15

    And the Bible talks about the devil like the devil is real and active.

    08:15-08:18

    And I believe it. I believe it.

    08:19-08:24

    And this is one of the most shocking things Jesus could have possibly said to His enemies.

    08:24-08:28

    These were people that were like, "Hey, we love God. We're all about worshiping God.

    08:28-09:00

    We're God's children." and Jesus said, "No, no, no. You're Satan's kids. You're the spawn of Satan is what you are." Specifically, let's talk about the devil and his kids. There's two things that Jesus points out that is true of the devil and it's true of the devil's kids because you act like your father. Right? You act like your father. And Jesus says, "Well, here's what the devil does and here's what his kids do." Letter A, they live in lies. Satan is a liar and His lies are not always obvious.

    09:01-09:01

    That's how he works.

    09:01-09:07

    It's deception, it's subtlety, it's taking the truth and twisting it.

    09:08-09:11

    Satan makes you think that the lie is actually the truth.

    09:13-09:19

    Satan was doing fake news before that was a popular thing to be talking about.

    09:20-09:22

    And it goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden, right?

    09:24-09:25

    You remember the Garden of Eden, the first question of the Bible?

    09:26-09:29

    When Satan shows up to Eve, and he's like, "Did God really say?" Did God really say that?

    09:30-09:32

    Casting doubt on the Word of God.

    09:32-09:33

    That's how Satan works.

    09:33-09:40

    He doesn't just come right out and say, "Hey, the Bible's wrong!" He starts with, "Hey, did God really say that?" I mean, let's think about that for a second.

    09:41-09:42

    That's what he did to Eve.

    09:43-09:44

    And then he just flat-out contradicted.

    09:44-09:53

    He goes, "Oh, you're not going to die if you eat that fruit." And Eve's big sin, even before eating the fruit, was believing the lie.

    09:54-09:55

    And Satan's lies continue.

    09:56-09:56

    They continue.

    09:57-09:59

    doesn't really mean what it says.

    10:00-10:05

    You don't really need Jesus Christ to go to heaven because, come on, you're a good person.

    10:06-10:06

    You're a good person.

    10:06-10:10

    How could God let somebody like you go to hell?

    10:10-10:11

    Because you're a good person.

    10:11-10:12

    You don't need Jesus.

    10:12-10:16

    You don't need to be one of those church people.

    10:18-10:19

    Let's be honest, there's no hell.

    10:20-10:23

    I mean, that's just something that the church made up to scare people.

    10:24-10:25

    Those are all lies of the enemy.

    10:26-10:30

    and He gets people to believe Him, and He gets people to propagate them.

    10:31-10:31

    They're lies.

    10:32-10:41

    He lies, He makes you believe the lie, He makes you promote the lie, and we've seen it from Genesis 3 until today.

    10:42-10:47

    So, the devil and his kids, they live in lies, and letter B, they destroy lives.

    10:48-10:52

    That's a characteristic of the devil, and that's a characteristic of the devil's kids.

    10:52-10:54

    They destroy lives.

    10:54-10:56

    Jesus said Satan is a murderer.

    10:56-11:03

    You're like, "Well, I've never murdered anyone." Well, Jesus told us that murder was a heart thing, not just an action thing.

    11:03-11:07

    Check out Matthew 5.21 sometime and following.

    11:07-11:11

    Murder, Jesus said, is not just the act, it's a condition of the heart.

    11:13-11:24

    And according to Jesus, listen closely, murder is hatred that causes you to destroy another life in any way or to any degree.

    11:26-11:28

    I mean, yes, murder is the physical act, yes.

    11:30-11:33

    But it's also words said in anger according to Jesus.

    11:34-11:38

    Murder is also gossip, trying to destroy somebody's reputation.

    11:38-11:41

    Murder is also racism.

    11:42-11:44

    Murder is refusing to forgive someone.

    11:45-11:53

    In other words, all of the things that we try to do to destroy or hurt another person in any way or any degree, it's from a murderous heart.

    11:54-12:03

    And if you intentionally try to hurt someone in any degree, in any way, that's from the devil.

    12:04-12:09

    And when you do that, according to Jesus, you're Satan's kid.

    12:10-12:10

    Okay?

    12:11-12:21

    So when you're like, "You know what? I hate that guy! I hate that guy!" And my response is, "Okay, Satan Jr., because you're talking like your dad.

    12:22-12:47

    It sounds like something your dad would say." Or if you're like, "You know what? A co-worker of mine, he can drop dead." "Okay, Satan Jr., you sound just like your dad when you talk that way." Or you say, "You know what? I am so sick of my neighbor. They can go to hell." Okay, Satan Jr., you sound just like your dad when you talk like that.

    12:47-12:54

    All of the, "Hey, did you hear what so-and-so did?" And you're trying to hurt that person's reputation in somebody else's eyes.

    12:55-12:56

    You're talking like your dad.

    12:57-12:59

    Satan, when you say, "I'll never forgive that person.

    12:59-13:02

    I don't care if I ever see that person again.

    13:03-13:07

    That person is dead to me." You're talking like your dad.

    13:08-13:09

    And your dad ain't God.

    13:10-13:14

    Jesus points out here, it doesn't matter what you say because your heart shows up in your actions.

    13:15-13:17

    And what you do reveals to whom you belong.

    13:17-13:29

    And any claim you make about following Jesus - like I go to this church, or I'm a deacon, or I'm an elder, or I'm a worship leader, I work with the kids at the church - whatever.

    13:30-13:32

    Any of those claims are completely empty.

    13:33-13:40

    If your heart is full of murder, resentment, and spite, and hatred, You're acting like your dad.

    13:40-13:41

    No matter what you say.

    13:42-13:46

    So number two, it doesn't matter what you say, it matters who you hear.

    13:46-13:48

    It matters who you hear.

    13:49-13:50

    Look at verse 45.

    13:52-13:55

    Jesus continues, He says, "But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

    13:56-13:57

    Which one of you convicts Me of sin?

    13:58-14:01

    If I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

    14:02-14:10

    Whoever is of God, here's the words of God, The reason you do not hear them is that you are not of God.

    14:10-14:11

    Stop there.

    14:11-14:12

    Because this is profound.

    14:12-14:33

    Jesus says to a group of people that hate Him, "Which one of you convicts me of sin?" Now, if I stood before a bunch of people that hate me, and there are quite a few of those people, but if I stood in front of a group of my enemies and said, "Hey, full disclosure, have I ever done anything wrong in my life?

    14:33-14:35

    Go ahead, let me know.

    14:36-14:44

    I would say you better pack a lunch, and you better get comfortable, because they are going to have a list of ways that I have messed up.

    14:45-14:49

    Wrong things that I've said, wrong things that I've done, horrible attitudes that I've had.

    14:49-14:51

    They're gonna line up.

    14:51-14:52

    Yeah, let me tell you, Jeff.

    14:53-14:56

    I'm gonna tell you, I've seen you mess up plenty, especially from your enemies.

    14:57-15:00

    Like, yeah, they got the list ready in their head, right?

    15:01-15:08

    So now Jesus is standing before his enemies and he says, "Tell me what I've done wrong." Why did he say that?

    15:09-15:24

    He's basically asking them, "Hey, is there something about me that's making you disregard the message?" Side note, this is bonus content, Easter egg on the DVD stuff, a whole other sermon for another time.

    15:24-15:32

    but Jesus was showing us here that sin in your life allows people to justify disregarding your message.

    15:33-15:34

    Again, that's a whole other sermon.

    15:36-15:44

    But if you're wondering why the people at work aren't taking your invite to church, you're listening to you share the gospel, maybe it's because you're not living it.

    15:44-15:52

    And they're like, "Oh, you want me to go to your church and be a hypocrite like you, huh? Pass." Sin in your life allows people to justify disregarding your message.

    15:52-16:00

    But you see, when it comes to Jesus, His conduct and his words made it impossible for people to dismiss his message.

    16:01-16:02

    His character was perfect.

    16:02-16:04

    Like, what have I ever done wrong?

    16:04-16:11

    And they're like, "Uh, uh, uh, well, uh, um, oh man." They came up empty, right?

    16:11-16:15

    Verse 48, "The Jews answered him." I love this.

    16:15-16:18

    Jesus is like, "What have I ever done wrong?" Here was their response.

    16:18-16:23

    The Jews answered him, "Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?

    16:24-16:25

    You know what's going on here.

    16:26-16:28

    This is what happens when you lose a debate, by the way.

    16:29-16:32

    It starts intellectual, and then it gets emotional.

    16:33-16:37

    But when someone's losing a debate, the next step is name-calling.

    16:37-16:38

    That's what's happening here.

    16:38-16:44

    They were losing this discussion, this argument, so they start calling them names.

    16:44-16:46

    They're like, Jesus, who can convict me of sin?

    16:46-16:48

    You don't hear me because you're not of God.

    16:49-17:00

    And they're like, "You're a duty head, and you're a Samaritan, and you have a demon!" And that's what they were doing. They're just name-calling.

    17:01-17:04

    They're like, "See, we know it." They were losing.

    17:06-17:14

    Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me.

    17:15-17:20

    Yet I do not seek my own glory. There is one who seeks it, and he is the judge.

    17:20-17:29

    Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.' The Jews said to him, 'Now we know that you have a demon.

    17:30-17:32

    Abraham died, as did the prophets.

    17:32-17:40

    Yet you say, 'If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.' Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died, and the prophets died?

    17:41-17:49

    Who do you make yourself out to be?' Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing.

    17:49-17:56

    It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say He is our God." Stop there.

    17:58-18:03

    Jesus again promises that in Him, when you trust His Word, you will never see death.

    18:04-18:18

    And if there's one thing that we've learned from this pandemic that we're going through, if there's one thing I think that we can all agree with, It's that people are scared to death of death.

    18:19-18:21

    Not that we should ever be careless.

    18:22-18:24

    But the reality is people are really scared.

    18:25-18:27

    Like, really scared.

    18:28-18:32

    The reality is there are some people that may never want to leave their homes again.

    18:32-18:34

    Because they're scared to death of death.

    18:35-18:38

    And to this I want you to look again at the words of Jesus.

    18:39-18:46

    If anyone keeps My word, verse 51, "He will never see death." Yes, you will physically die. The Bible is clear about that.

    18:46-18:47

    It's pointed on a man who wants to die.

    18:47-18:51

    You will physically die, but Jesus was talking about eternal death.

    18:52-18:54

    He was talking about the second death. He was talking about hell.

    18:55-18:56

    Here's the thing, church.

    18:57-19:09

    When you receive Jesus Christ, the gift of eternal life that He gives, that He provided through the cross, through the empty tomb, and you believe in Christ, when you leave the earth, it's not death.

    19:10-19:14

    You have to think of it more in terms of changing addresses.

    19:15-19:23

    You go from alive in Christ here to alive in Christ there.

    19:23-19:25

    That's what death is for the Christian.

    19:27-19:28

    They're just changing addresses.

    19:30-19:38

    And their reaction to Jesus' statement, you catch that, they're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, who do you think you are, Paul? You know Abraham? He died.

    19:38-19:40

    And you know all the prophets, they all died.

    19:41-19:43

    And who do you think you are?

    19:43-19:47

    And we read this and we're like, how could they possibly be so clueless?

    19:47-19:50

    They're standing there talking to God face to face.

    19:50-19:52

    How could they be so clueless?

    19:52-19:55

    And I'm gonna show you exactly why they were so clueless.

    19:56-19:57

    Look at verse 47.

    19:58-19:59

    This is why they were clueless.

    20:00-20:04

    Because Jesus said, whoever is of God, here's the words of God.

    20:04-20:09

    The reason you do not hear them is that you are not of God.

    20:10-20:14

    So Jesus was saying, "You perceive that I'm talking.

    20:14-20:26

    You understand the language that's coming out of my mouth, but you can't hear the words." Because God's people hear God's Word.

    20:27-20:31

    And if you are not one of God's people, you cannot hear God's Word.

    20:32-20:34

    It's like God is on FM.

    20:35-20:37

    But every unbeliever is tuned into AM.

    20:38-20:40

    It's impossible for them to hear.

    20:40-20:48

    And for some of you that are listening to this, even people that have been coming to this church, or watching us online, some of you don't believe.

    20:49-20:51

    And for some of you, it doesn't make sense.

    20:51-20:53

    The sermons just don't make sense.

    20:53-20:58

    No matter who's speaking, no matter how we explain it, it just doesn't make sense.

    20:58-20:59

    I just don't get it.

    21:00-21:03

    And if that's you, you're unable to hear the Word of God.

    21:04-21:10

    If you've tried reading your Bible, and it just is not making any sense to you at all.

    21:10-21:12

    You're like, "I don't know why people get so fired up about this.

    21:13-21:22

    This isn't speaking to me whatsoever." That's a very scary sign that you can't hear the Word.

    21:22-21:30

    And Jesus said, "When that's the case, you are not of God." We're going to see this as we continue through John.

    21:31-21:41

    Eventually when we get to John 10, Jesus said, John 10.27, He said, "My sheep, hear my voice." My sheep, hear my voice.

    21:42-21:43

    You know what it's like?

    21:43-21:48

    It's sort of like, I've never had sheep, okay?

    21:49-21:50

    I've always wanted a goat.

    21:51-21:54

    Don't have one yet, but I've never had sheep.

    21:55-21:56

    But you know something I have had?

    21:57-21:58

    Dogs.

    21:58-22:01

    And I remember many years ago, I had this boxer.

    22:02-23:03

    name was Brody. Early 2000s I would do camp up in Slippery Rock for little kids and I would take Brody with me and I remember Brody would be running with the kids and there'd be like a hundred kids around Brody they're all laughing, "Hey Brody!" and they're like just surrounding him and and just carrying on and just having a blast and I remember I was doing this as a test and I would be like 100, 200 yards away at the camp while all these kids were surrounding the dog and and I would just go "Brody come here!" and as soon as he heard my voice his ears perked up his head perked up and he saw me and he came running and the significant thing about that is he was so tuned into my voice that it didn't matter that there were a a hundred other voices in his ear, as soon as he heard my voice." It was like, "How I know that guy." And he came running.

    23:04-23:10

    And you're like, "What's the point?" The point is this, that's how it is for people that can hear God.

    23:11-23:12

    That's just how it is.

    23:13-23:19

    Meaning, you are bombarded by hundreds of voices every day.

    23:19-23:21

    The news telling you this.

    23:21-23:22

    The radio telling you this.

    23:23-23:24

    Your co-workers telling you this.

    23:25-23:25

    Your neighbors.

    23:26-23:28

    All of this information is coming.

    23:28-23:33

    But when you are of God, when God speaks to you, you know it's His voice.

    23:33-23:34

    You know it is.

    23:34-23:37

    And your ears perk up and you come running.

    23:38-23:39

    Like, that's God.

    23:39-23:40

    That's God speaking.

    23:40-23:41

    I know that's God speaking.

    23:42-23:45

    Right now an unbeliever's hearing this like, well, that sounds like cuckoo stuff.

    23:46-23:48

    But if you're a follower of Christ, you're nodding your head.

    23:48-23:51

    You're like, I know exactly what you're talking about.

    23:52-23:54

    when I hear the Word of God speaking.

    23:55-23:56

    Can you hear?

    23:57-24:00

    If you can't, I can't fix that.

    24:02-24:03

    No preacher can fix that.

    24:04-24:19

    And if you're feeling this conviction of, "Oh God, I can't hear Your voice, and now I'm starting to wonder, I'm starting to worry." My advice to you would be to get on your face and cry out to God, and say, "God, I want to know You!" But I don't know if I can hear You.

    24:19-24:21

    And God, You're going to have to wake something up in me.

    24:21-24:23

    You're going to have to open my ears.

    24:23-24:27

    God, you're going to have to do something so that I can hear your voice.

    24:28-24:31

    If you pray that with sincerity, He'll open your ears up.

    24:32-24:34

    Who's your Father? Number three, it doesn't matter what you say.

    24:35-24:36

    It matters who you know.

    24:38-24:40

    It's not what you know, it's who you know.

    24:40-24:41

    You know, my dad told me that too.

    24:42-24:44

    And that's true in the spiritual realm.

    24:44-24:45

    It's not what you know, it's who you know.

    24:47-24:49

    Let's pick up where we're at, verse 55.

    24:50-24:53

    Sorry, my page blew and that really threw me off.

    24:54-24:56

    Verse 55, Jesus goes on.

    24:56-25:06

    He said, "As my Father glorifies me, of whom you say He is our God," verse 54, "but," verse 55, "you have not known Him, I know Him.

    25:07-25:10

    If I were to say that I do not know Him, I would be a liar like you.

    25:11-25:14

    But I do know Him, and I keep His word.

    25:15-25:18

    Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day.

    25:18-25:21

    He saw it and was glad.

    25:22-25:25

    Jesus said, "You say you know God, you don't know Him.

    25:26-25:35

    It's just obvious you don't know Him." Jesus said, "But I do." Oh, and speaking of Abraham, well, this is a profound statement.

    25:35-25:39

    Jesus said Abraham was looking forward to the day that Jesus would show up on the earth.

    25:41-25:59

    You know, sometimes we read the Old Testament, we think, "Oh, those poor Old Testament people." It's like, "Oh man, I feel bad for people that lived in the Old Testament." Because where we live in history, we're so much more enlightened because Jesus was here and Jesus died and Jesus resurrected and the Holy Spirit came.

    26:00-26:02

    We have the whole story.

    26:03-26:07

    And those poor ignorant people in the Old Testament had no idea what was going on.

    26:08-26:10

    And that doesn't seem to be true according to Jesus.

    26:11-26:15

    Jesus said Abraham knew. Abraham knew what was coming.

    26:15-26:24

    He said, "Abraham couldn't wait for the day that I showed up here on the earth." See, our faith is based on what God has done past tense in the Messiah.

    26:25-26:33

    Their faith in the Old Testament, which was just as real, was based on what God would do in their future in the Messiah.

    26:35-26:36

    That's another sermon for another time.

    26:37-26:39

    Let's get back to this one, verse 57.

    26:39-26:53

    So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" Okay, so Jesus is talking about Abraham like he knows him, like he's chummy with him, like he knows all about Abraham.

    26:53-26:58

    And they're like, "Whoa, whoa, you don't even look like you're fifty." Obviously they were being sarcastic.

    27:00-27:14

    "You're not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" Verse 58, "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, "Before Abraham was, I am." So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

    27:15-27:19

    This is one of the clearest statements in the Bible, that Jesus is God, by the way.

    27:20-27:26

    I've heard people say, "Well, the Bible doesn't say Jesus is God." That's interesting, because Jesus himself said that He was God.

    27:26-27:27

    And here's one example.

    27:29-27:55

    Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am." That "I am," that's the name that God gave, revealing himself. Exodus chapter 3, Moses was like, "Hey, what's your name?" And God's like, "My name is I Am. I Am who I Am." And it's funny because there are people that are like, "That's not what Jesus meant by that." I'm like, "Well, that's funny because that's how His audience here took it." Right? They knew exactly what He meant.

    27:55-28:00

    Because their response was to pick up stones and try to stone Him.

    28:01-28:04

    And I've got to be honest, if I was Jesus, I would have just vaporized them on the spot.

    28:05-28:06

    Like, "Oh, you're going to stone me, huh?

    28:07-28:09

    Cute. Ashes.

    28:10-28:15

    I'm not Jesus." What did He do? He hid Himself and He left.

    28:16-28:17

    Just walked out.

    28:18-28:26

    The theme of our ministry year, my goal this whole year has been to take you from knowing about Jesus to knowing Jesus.

    28:28-28:33

    These people in this passage, even way more than us, knew about God.

    28:35-28:36

    They knew about the Scriptures.

    28:37-28:39

    And they knew about Jesus face to face.

    28:40-28:44

    And I think it's obvious when we get to the end of chapter 8 that it didn't do any of them a lick of good.

    28:45-28:50

    And there are going to be people that will walk away from church for the same reason.

    28:51-28:58

    There are going to be people, even people sitting here watching today, there are going to be people walk away from this church for the same reason.

    28:59-29:02

    Because you know about Jesus, but you don't know Jesus.

    29:03-29:05

    And if that's you, you're not going to stick.

    29:06-29:08

    It was in the news last week.

    29:09-29:13

    A lot of things were in the news last week, even since I had this prepared.

    29:15-29:16

    It was in the news last week.

    29:17-29:17

    Maybe you've heard of it.

    29:19-29:25

    But another famous Christian musician walked away from the Lord.

    29:26-29:32

    And I print out an article, I'm not going to read the whole thing, but I do want to share part of this with you.

    29:33-29:40

    Lead singer of Christian rock band, Hawk Nelson says he no longer believes in God.

    29:41-29:49

    Says John Steingard, lead singer of the Christian rock band, Hawk Nelson, regretfully announced on Instagram last week that he no longer believes in God.

    29:50-29:53

    And he goes on to say, you know, I got to be honest here and I'm just going to share.

    29:55-30:14

    The article here says, "According to Steingard, he always had an inherent problem with evangelical Christian culture, even as a child growing up in a pastor's home, which then blossomed into a problem with the Bible itself as he grew into adulthood." He said, and this is a quote from him, "I remember being uncomfortable with certain things.

    30:15-30:18

    Praying in public always felt like some kind of weird performance art.

    30:18-30:25

    Emotional cries such as, 'Holy Spirit, come fill this place,' I always felt clunky and awkward leaving my lips.

    30:26-30:32

    A youth conference I attended encouraged every team to sign a pledge that they would date Jesus for a year.

    30:33-30:35

    It felt manipulative and unsettling to me.

    30:35-30:36

    I didn't sign it.

    30:37-30:45

    Despite those concerns in his youth, he still ended up pursuing music and genuinely found some peace with the band Hawk Nelson.

    30:46-30:51

    However, as time grew on, Steingart increasingly had trouble with the concept of evil.

    30:52-30:58

    Now these quotes I'm going to read, these are again from him, but these were his reasons for walking away from God.

    30:59-31:12

    He said, by the way, somebody contact him and tell him about Q&A day on June 14th, because we can answer all of these because God's word has the answer for all of these, but I want you to listen to his questions, his objections.

    31:12-31:16

    He says, "If God is all loving and all powerful, why is there evil in the world?

    31:17-31:19

    Can you not do anything about it?

    31:19-31:20

    Does he choose not to?

    31:20-31:23

    He's the evil in the world as a result of his desire to give us free will.

    31:23-31:31

    Okay then, what about famine and disease and floods and all the suffering that isn't caused by humans in our free will?

    31:31-31:33

    If God is loving, why does He send people to hell?

    31:34-31:39

    He then attacked what He felt were contradictions between the Old and New Testaments.

    31:40-31:49

    He says, why does God seem so blanked off in the Old Testament, and then all of a sudden, He's a loving Father in the New Testament.

    31:50-31:54

    Why does He say not to kill, then instruct Israel to turn around and kill men and women and children?

    31:55-31:56

    Take the promised land.

    31:56-31:59

    Why does God let Job suffer horrible things just to win a bet with Satan?

    32:00-32:02

    Why does He tell Abraham to kill his son?

    32:02-32:08

    And then basically say, "Just kidding, that was a test." If God can do anything, can't you forgive without someone dying?

    32:08-32:10

    I mean, my parents taught me to forgive people.

    32:11-32:12

    Nobody dies in that scenario.

    32:13-32:14

    His words.

    32:16-32:18

    And look, I'm not trying to pile on.

    32:18-32:19

    I'm not casting judgment.

    32:20-32:23

    I don't think God's story with him is done yet, to be honest with you.

    32:24-32:29

    The reason I shared that with you today is maybe you read that and had the same reaction that I did.

    32:30-32:37

    We're like, "How does that happen?" I mean, growing up in the church, and your dad is a pastor.

    32:37-32:39

    Now look, I don't know this guy personally.

    32:41-32:42

    I don't know his dad.

    32:42-32:43

    I don't know his church.

    32:45-32:48

    But I know how these things can happen.

    32:49-33:07

    Your faith, your personal faith, if it's built on felt needs, or emotion, or sentimentality, or "I'm part of a hip church culture," your foundation is sand.

    33:08-33:17

    And the reason I shared this is because by this man's own words, by his own words, he knew the right things to say.

    33:18-33:20

    He knew the motions to go through.

    33:21-33:24

    He knew what was expected from his job.

    33:25-33:44

    But when it came to the very heart of God revealed in the Word of God, Steingart by his own admission says, "I just don't understand it at all." Because he saw the words on the page, but he didn't know the heart of the One who wrote them.

    33:44-33:48

    And again, I'm not pointing fingers at him, and point their fingers at us.

    33:49-34:04

    Because like him, you too can become an expert on singing about Jesus, on talking about Jesus, on knowing about Jesus, with ever really knowing Jesus.

    34:06-34:21

    As I close, if the worship team would make their way forward, you know, sometimes we have this tendency that there are these very serious, hardcore, Bible-reading Christians.

    34:22-34:27

    And then on the other hand, you have these really nasty, evil unbelievers.

    34:28-34:42

    But we have this big, meaty middle of churchgoers who aren't really fired up about Jesus, but they aren't pagan either, so they're probably saved.

    34:42-34:45

    But you know, the Bible doesn't make distinctions like that.

    34:45-34:51

    Do you realize in the Bible when it talks about who belongs to Christ and who doesn't, it's always black and white.

    34:52-34:53

    You're either dead or you're alive.

    34:55-34:56

    You're either a slave or you're free.

    34:57-34:59

    You're either lost or you're found.

    34:59-35:10

    And Jesus made the distinction crystal clear in this passage when He said, "You either belong to God or you belong to the devil." What about you?

    35:10-35:11

    Is God your Father?

    35:12-35:15

    Is God your Father? It doesn't matter what you say.

    35:15-35:16

    It matters what you do.

    35:17-35:18

    It matters who you hear.

    35:20-35:21

    It matters who you know.

    35:21-35:24

    Which Father does your life imitate?

    35:24-35:25

    Let's pray.

    35:25-35:30

    Father in Heaven, we thank You for these very uncomfortable words of Jesus.

    35:31-35:39

    And they are uncomfortable to our sinful flesh, Father, because there's something even in our flesh that wants to say, "That's hard.

    35:39-35:41

    That's coming in too hot, Jesus.

    35:41-35:44

    And it's truth.

    35:45-35:59

    I pray, Father, just as the words of Jesus challenged the religion for show that these men had, I pray that the words of Jesus would challenge the religion for show that we can be just as guilty of.

    36:01-36:02

    Open our ears, Father.

    36:04-36:04

    Let us hear.

    36:05-36:06

    Let us believe.

    36:08-36:08

    Let us live.

    36:09-36:11

    We pray in Jesus' name, Amen.

Small Group Discussion
Read John 8:39-59

  1. What are some ways you’ve seen yourself acting like your father?

  2. What was your big “take-away” from this passage / message?

  3. Read John 8:47. If someone can’t hear God, how can they truly come to Christ? Is there any way to change someone who is unable to hear God?

  4. Explain John 8:56. How did Abraham “see” Jesus’ day? What does this say about how people were saved BEFORE Jesus came to the earth?

Breakout
Pray for one another.